Reader Submission #66 – Camber Doesn’t Appear to be Working Properly in Assetto Corsa

Part Reader Submission, part public experiment, longtime Aussie bloke Hash tipped us off to this one, though his original post was made throughout a thread on the Steam Forums dedicated to the issue. We’ve cleaned up the grammar and organized the results a bit, making this a much easier read for those who can’t be assed to visit the Steam forums.

Regardless, Hash has discovered a fairly fundamental problem with tire wear in Assetto Corsa, a problem that was seen in previous versions of Project CARS prior to the Version 7.0 patch. No matter what angle of camber you’ve selected for your car setup in Assetto Corsa, tire wear is… It doesn’t work as it should.


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So I wanted to run some GT3 cars in AC to compare the various GT3 mods. Running the vanilla McLaren MP4-12c during a 15 lap race, I left Camber at the ridiculously high default value: 3.9. On the last lap I’d skip to the pits to check tire temperatures, and big surprise, not only are the temps far too low for that kind of camber, but the heat is almost equal across the tire. It seems crazy and completely wrong, so I can’t be first one to notice this.

It also appears I can just add the maximum camber value and receive maximum grip with zero downside. It makes the whole setup side of things seem like a complete waste of time. On a smaller note, the default brake balance is crazy as well, something like 68.

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It obviously should not be equal like this after a race, or any realistic scenario. While driving I can see extreme events effecting the heat of the tire, as I dumped a burn out exited to pit straight away and the tire temperature went over 100, but after a full race the temperature is very low. Also the blister/grain meter is reporting 0% after the race as well, although to be honest I’m not exactly sure what it’s covering.

My method of building car setups is exactly how drivers and engineers do it in real life. They go out for a few laps laps, take a reading of the tire temperatures, adjust the camber, and repeat. I thought this was fairly common knowledge, tire heat tells you if the setup is balanced, and is extremely important. I use this method across all other sims, and you still cant explain the extremely weird anomaly that the tires temperatures are somehow are equal across both tires. Something is not working how it should.

To get equal temperatures across the tire like what occurred in the screenshots above, in real life you’d run zero camber and drive straight without turning your vehicle whatsoever. In that case you may get close to equal temperatures across the tires, however depending on tire inflation its unlikely this hypothetical scenario would produce the results above in AC after a fifteen lap stint.

0 camber.jpg

To take things a step further, I ran an identical length stint with absolutely no camber whatsoever. My left front tire should have been destroyed, yet instead the inner/middle/outer temperatures are almost the same as the default camber values (within a few degrees). This makes no sense. Please tell me I have messed something up somewhere. I know they are talking about this on the official forums, but maybe the discussion hasn’t gotten to this point yet?


 

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I know when Sev was in the RaceDepartment BMW 235i League earlier this year, I recall him saying something along the lines of maximum camber giving you maximum grip with no tangible degradation to the tires, but afterwards the three of lost interest in Assetto Corsa to the point where nobody touched the game enough to experiment with all of the different variables.

At the Nordschleife a few weeks ago in a RaceDepartment club, after an hour on Medium compound tires the car still felt like it had the same amount of grip it did when the tires first started to heat up, and by chance I took a look at the screen and saw there was no grain on all four corners of the car. I know I’m a good driver, but I would have thought that eight laps at the full Nordscheife endurance layout would wear out the rubber a bit. It didn’t. So you might be on to something, but just in case one of us is wrong, I’ll throw things up here and let our readers figure it out.

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136 thoughts on “Reader Submission #66 – Camber Doesn’t Appear to be Working Properly in Assetto Corsa

  1. Go find it on the official forums, devs have said they think the cars in real life drive better with max camber. I guess completely disregarding the fact that they should chew apart the inner edge.

    I dont know man, cars feel good but theres still like nothing to do with all the missing online features. Then you add on perplexing things like always have max camber and more DLC 1.5 months after DLC I just dont know what to say about a dev I respected.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/open-letter-to-the-community-this-time-from-a-dev.25835/

      “Cars.There are thousands of people out there that still do not know that you should lower the pressure of the road tyres and even more on the semislick tyres to make the road car behave better on the circuits. They do not know they should use as much camber as possible at the front of the road cars… it is limited anyway, so everylittle helps.”

      This goes against everything I ever read about setting up tires, you shouldn’t have too much camber to where the inner edge is any more than like 10 degrees warmer than the middle reading? I know he references streetcars but this applies to race cars in game too…

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Try max camber in GSCE,RF-RF2 or iracing, you will massively over heat inner tyre, and eventually destroy it (max wear), these are fundamentals Kunos appear to be getting wrong.

        The quote is crazy, apart from camber comment,you don’t lower tyre pressure with street tyres, like you would slicks, to increase grip, street tyres (even “sports car” tyres) come with and are built around very specific recommended pressures, that if played with could destroy the tyre or the way teh tread works, unreal.

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      2. Doesnt matter what car, what camber, how many laps or circuit, temp results are all the same,wrong, completely wrong,even with a road tyre at close to zero camber should show bigger diffrence across tyre.

        Although again road tyres work diffrently from full blown race tyre, for example Aris or who ever should no you dont deflate a fucking road tyre to get more grip out of it, he also completely misses point that lowering tyre pressure is liek all of car setups a compromise, adding grip in exchange for wear and straight speed drag on tyre, its so much more than one issue.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. Why you talk about cars, camber, setup like we would be driving in the city on our way to the mall?

        This is a racing game where it doesn’t matter to preserve the cars in a race of road cars for 5-10 laps. You setup the car in a way to be faster and make it to the end of the race at the highest place possible. And in this situation you do things that aren’t recommended to do in your city car or in endurance races.
        I think you still haven’t realize that the changes made in v1.3 were just part of work in progress for the tire model and tire heating model. You are drawing too many conclusions when the time isn’t right for that.
        You should make your own thread after v1.4 and report your findings, then maybe people will look at what you’re saying. Not post some stuff in a big old thread when we are so close to a new game update and things you said are probably obsolete or weren’t true, there’s also that possibility.

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      4. “Why you talk about cars, camber, setup like we would be driving in the city on our way to the mall?”

        Sorry bud no idea what you are trying to say

        “”This is a racing game where it doesn’t matter to preserve the cars in a race of road cars for 5-10 laps. You setup the car in a way to be faster and make it to the end of the race at the highest place possible. And in this situation you do things that aren’t recommended to do in your city car or in endurance races.””

        Again Im totally lost on what exactly you are trying to say, yes race slicks and road tyres are very different,and work slightly differently ( for example you dont as AC main dev seems to think, lower tyre pressure on road tyres) anyway neither works how it should.

        “”You should make your own thread after v1.4 and report your findings, then maybe people will look at what you’re saying””

        I will, look forward to it, and will be interesting, also to you and others, just because there’s a patch coming out doesn’t mean I should not bring up or discuss major issues a year from release? what logic is this?.

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  2. Check the kunos forums, the top several issues in physics bugs section are all related to this tyre heat\camber issue, and have zero dev interest, more interested in banning ppl that dare look at encrypted files in the name of bug tracking, there’s also a further problem with cars bottoming out, they don’t, or at least to no obvious effect essentially making ride height irrelevant.

    I actually enjoyed looking into this stuff, more for self learning more then anything, and even with issues, i did enjoy the small blasts I had in AC testing,and was finally looking at setups side of things in AC in prep for upcoming DRM, but tbh its still a hot lapper at best and now one where setups are whack and appear irrelevant and contrived.

    The biggest let down was general response, from both devs and players,or lack off, I approached it very diplomatically and provided all the data, yet neither seem remotely interested.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. “yet neither seem remotely interested.”

      Maybe because devs (physic/programming devs) are working at high/full capacity since they are so close to a new update (v1.4), and they don’t have time to check forums and give lengthy responses about technical things.
      And another thing, long before you came to the forum with “your findings”, people and devs already noted inconsistencies in the current model, and it was never going to stay that way. You were too late to the party, and now you complain that no one cares what you said, since that party was already danced a long time ago.
      Maybe you should check your stuff after the new update is released, then you won’t be late to the party.

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      1. Im not talking about what I said, look through those threads that report on these issues, from as long as a month ago, and devs ain’t said boo and these are huge issues, not just “tyre temp” as so many claim are soooo unimportant, its pretty annoying being told that tyre temps,wear, camber and bottoming out is such a minor issue in a sim, ppl saying that rubbish are just showing extremely limited knowledge on fairly basic but important principles.

        At the moment Motec reader doesn’t even have channels from AC to read inner\middle\outers, despite other sims capable of giving that info to motec,its just one blanket temp read I really starting to belive Inner\middle\outters (not just heat) aren’t actually modeled at all.

        also why do they constantly bang on about “core temp’ that’s the temp of the air\gas, and has next to no effect on either car performance or even outer temps outside of long enduro races, so why all this modeling and talk of it?when stupidly obvious stuff like this “doesn’t really matter”.

        We will see come update, im over “updates” still waiting for proper flag rules that was supposed to be in pre release, then first patch, then “oh it doesn’t matter, we aren’t modeling certain race series anyway” as one small example of disappointing updates.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Why is it disappointing to you? Is there a rule book of standard things to put in a sim racing game otherwise that game is shit? Don’t you already have alternatives where you can do those things you so much desire? Or you realized that even if those games have those things you ask so much from AC, doesn’t actually make it a great (sim) racing game. I bet you are one of those people who demand rain in sims and otherwise the game is disappointing, and then maybe you just do one practice in rain that one time per year.

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      3. We aren’t talking features they haven’t added, we are talking about issues that completely brake setups and bring into questioning what exactly is going on under the hood, if DCS world(insert any sim) didn’t back itself up with data and proper simulation and only rely ppl’s “feelings” it wouldnt be regarded how it is, a outstanding sim, i’ve watched people rip into PCars (which also displays some of these same bugs, fucked tyre model) for same thing, find a fundemental issue llike this in AC and what do ppl say “err geez, like the tyre model isnt even like important, stop being a drag”

        if you are not interested in complex simulation, move along and enjoy ya game, whys it even bother you? if you dont even understand it or don’t care if its right hmm?

        Liked by 2 people

      4. You didn’t back yourself with real data either. You pointed things from AC and made people create their own interpretation. Besides, there’s no point in v1.3 tire model to compare it to real life, because is not finished, it was just work in the beginning or half way. There are inconsistencies in the heating model, but why are you making it such a big deal like you discovered gun powder? And stop comparing it to other sim which themselves have problems with pressures and heating. So is kinda pointless. Comparisons of sims should be made with real life, not to other games. Is like cheating in an exam by copying from the buddy next to you. You are likely to write the same mistakes as him.

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      5. “You didn’t back yourself with real data either. You pointed things from AC and made people create their own interpretation.”

        Telemetry screens in steam thread, can produce a lot more, also interesting AC doesn’t even apparently have channels outputting for inner\middle\outter tyres, unlike other sims Ive collected motec data for.

        Also no, not discovering gun powder, just a slightly questionable dev and a legion of so called sim fans that apparently ain’t got a clue what the fuck this very basic stuff is, I honestly dont think its sunk in to ya average AC player what a major flaw all these issues add up to, therefore why the fuck would devs do anything?

        Im starting to agree with stefano comments, that his customers for the large part seem to be clueless and dont even bother with complex setups and the correct data\simulation.

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      6. what do you mean “a questionable dev”? You are again drawing too many conclusions for work in progress things. You are drawing conclusions on things that are half way or in their beginning state. You also missed the fact that devs put the thread tag to “Reported!” quite some time ago. So again, you are too quick to judge and draw conclusions.

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    2. What im not getting Hash is the 0% grain or blister, i just ran 3 laps at the new brands in the c7r and got 1% on the front and 2% on the rear… you sure you got tyre wear on? cos I know mine is

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      1. I triple checked across several cars and tyre versions, in motec data appear to get wear, but zero on blister\wear in setup screen in game, but yeah good observation, check patch notes mentions nothing about any of this, so will test on my lunch break, you should all do the same get motec plugin and go nuts, see what you guys find, as nobody seems to even be bothering lookin gclosely at this stuff.

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  3. In Gran Turismo 6 0.0 / 0.0 Camber was the absolute best for getting grip in-game. I remember there being a big discussion on it when the game came out but the numbers didn’t lie.

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  4. So much big fuss on the temperature model so soon to a new update? I guess hash couldn’t have waited for the new changes, especially when he knew that the status of things during v1.3 wasn’t going to stay that way. People reported issues with the tire temperature model long before hash, and even devs knew about it. Yet he posts these things so close to a new game update, when probably all he talked here is fixed already or wasn’t even an issue to begin with.

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  5. While yes, there are issues in AC regarding Camber, at least get your numbers correct. You show that your temps ‘are all equal’, but those numbers are not the live values, just an estimation of the pressures at a set temp (80 degs probably).

    Get the proper Suspension app for realtime surface temps, and the Telemetry for realtime core temps.

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    1. Core temps is the air temp for crying out loud, and has zero effect is indication of car performance and has little to zero effect on surface temp outside enduro races, complete waste of modeling, at least understand what you are talking about.

      I have the telemetry by the way in steam thread, why are my tyres also starting a race at 80c? thats insane , then after a full ten lap race they are down to 40c.

      Also for god knows how many times gotta explain this to so called sim players, “equal temps” is the tyres inner\middle\outer, not talking about FR FL RR and RL having all same temps, ffs this basic knowledge, so with that, what numbers I get wrong?

      Liked by 2 people

      1. When I ran the BMW M235i league I had the same problem with tire temps. Started the race with blankets, tires heated up to 80°C, but after the first lap they had cooled down to something like 55-60°C and there was no way to get them into the optimal temperature window again. Changing tire pressure did very little, apart from shaving off 10-15kph top speed but giving you at least the same amount back during corners. Some guy at the top of the field literally ran the lowest pressures possible (which aren’t even reccomended by Dunlop, the spec tire supplier IRL), and while absolutely losing out on a straight he would decimate everyone going into and out of a corner.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Core temp is not the air temp, it’s the bulk of the rubber in the carcass – think of it as the inside 95% of the tire is core, outside 5% is surface. When real world race teams measure tire temps in the pits, they’re stabbing a thermometer into the tire to read temperatures deeper into the rubber, which is what AC calls core temps. When you get an infrared camera and look at the tires, that’s what AC calls surface temps.

        The surface temp doesn’t have a whole lot of setup value from the pits because it changes almost immediately – stop driving hard and it’ll drop instantly, the time you spend at 80km/h running down pit lane is enough to lose any sense of what it was on track. The core temps are a much better measure of whether your tires are reaching operating temperature or not – and although they don’t directly determine grip, they do govern the range of temperatures the surface can reach. For example, if you have a core of 80C, then surfaces will run 110C in corners, if the core goes up to 85C then surfaces will run 115C because the core is acting as a heatsink.

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      3. Thank you anon…

        Carcass temps are pretty clearly understood. You guys should really try to get your terminology correct before reporting already known bugs. AC reports surface and carcass and has JUST been expanded to this system. It’s basically a brand new feature attempting to improve upon the limitations of the original model, as Sev alludes to indirectly. You PRC kids seem to have trouble putting it together. The original tyre model needed improvement. No one with any technical knowledge claimed it didn’t, just like no one with common sense will claim any game’s model doesn’t need improvement.

        For the record, the 12c will never be ‘fixed’ in the way you’re expecting, even if you weren’t confused by the concept of carcass temps.

        You handled the reporting of the issue in a good way but the issue was technically already known by the devs before it was released. It’s similar to making a bug report about rain being ‘broken’. The assumptions made during telemetry collection make it clear that little preliminary reading was done.

        If you want to discuss technical details, come prepared with the knowledge that is already readily available and known by many AND directly addressed by these updates that many of wantonly dismissed due to…reasons?

        Read the fucking patch notes and think about it for a start. Goddamn children.

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      4. Children?Who has to get terminology right? if you say “core” temp that means air temp, the “carcass” off the tyre, is known as that,kunos have named it wrong then, please tell me where I can collect “Core” or “carcass” temp as this isnt apprant in either AC or the motec channels (AC doesn’t even have channels for I\M\O temps), so whats the fucking point

        Its completely irrelevant,the surface figures it presents should be the figure you get from pit temps, like it is in EVERY OTHER SIM, THIS WORKS PERFECTLY, it is still wrong, why cant you see that, like (red) anon said, surface temp changes dramatically (this is why you tend to do 3 lap stints taking temps IRL), so why the hell is my fucking ridiculously hot tyres at start 80c surface(wtf) and fall to 40 after 10lap race.

        you are rewritng the fucking rules for kunos you fucking blind cunts, and talking like AC is EA not a 1 year released sim.getting sick of yas, call me a child?, look at how much explanation is needed for basic shit like this to wider AC community.

        Liked by 1 person

      5. Forgot to address the other aspect of this discussion: how you guys are estimating the relative performance of setups.

        None of you are capable of fully utilizing ideal setups in contrasting styles. Drivers have particular, often contrasting strengths. A late braker does not fully understand the lines of the similar-pace fast corner exit guy. The point of entry, throttle application, car characteristics which may dictate a more square first quarter of corner entry… Skilled drivers do NOT drive the same way and cannot directly emulate each other’s styles at the absolute limit of their pace.

        I’ve tested this pretty extensively…. I lose massive braking performance in AC and rf2 when camber is too high (and you usually have to tweak out the classic high negative twitch, as expected…but usually it means your camber is too high and you can’t brake nearly as well…. ). I really do not know what you guys are seeing here, it’s nothing like what I’ve noted.

        It’s lateral grip vs. longitudinal grip, including the drag as you guys note as ‘top speed’…. Longitudinal grip INCLUDES braking distance in AC very obviously, my brake points change pretty drastically.

        Bottoming out on cars that actually allow low enough suspension ranges/bumpy enough tracks seriously impairs grip and does seem to slow you down. Curb attacking is obviously much more dangerous as well. Many cars can be dropped as low as possible on a good number of the tracks. I don’t think that’s necessarily ‘wrong’ at all unless the car is limited to reduced ranges. I see a lot of variation between cars in relative suspension travel range and was under the impression that the values are intended to be as accurate to the real car as possible. Granted, I’m sure some things are wrong and probably some limitations due to the engine and simulation. It doesn’t appear to be SMS level bullshit though. Speaking of that, I’m wondering what exactly you guys consider an ‘accurate’ simulation of suspension setups? If you actually looked at it objectively, you would realize that AC is doing several things correctly with regards to setups that ISI is not.

        Maybe the 12c is messed up. I had trouble getting a fast setup that wasn’t annoying to drive out of it and never really messed with it much sense then. I might go check if my wheel stops acting up.

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      6. “”The pyrometer measures tread temperatures. Any tire will develop it’s optimum grip when the rubber compound is heated above ambient temp. Street tires like to stay fairly cool, 140-170°. UHP, EHP,MHP tires (R1R, Star Spec etc) will work best at slightly higher temps, around 150-190°. Full race tires (Hoosier, V710, NT01 etc) will want in the 170-220° range. Race tire manufacturers will always provide optimum tread temp info for a given compound, just ask them or go to their website in the competition tire section. Tires will always cool a bit after coming off track no matter how quickly you get to them so as long as your procedure remains the same, you can still get excellent data. The relative value is what matters, how the temps changed when you did this or that adjustment.””

        http://949racing.com/using-a-tire-pyrometer-949-Racing.aspx

        You guys are fucking clueless man.

        Heres where you can buy em

        http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1721

        so how big those needeles going inot tyres?

        “”The pyrometer measures tread temperatures.””

        You fellers make this too easy.

        Liked by 2 people

      7. “”you would realize that AC is doing several things correctly with regards to setups that ISI is not.””

        FFS now we’ve landed in lala land, wtf, not only GSCE,RF-RF2,LFS but even Iracing despite some apprant setup flaws is far ahead of AC as far as setting cars up goes, AC is a fucking mess in this regard, its updated to day looking forward to having a look.

        Liked by 1 person

      8. when the tyres start at 80c means you had tyre warmers on. Are you saying that by starting with 80ºc tyres you will keep the same 80ºc throughout the race and until the end? Tell me in which sim and which real life is that true?

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      9. “when the tyres start at 80c means you had tyre warmers on. Are you saying that by starting with 80ºc tyres you will keep the same 80ºc throughout the race and until the end? Tell me in which sim and which real life is that true?”

        Tyre warmers do not heat to bloody 80c, read my steam thread too took off EXACTLY SAME RESULT, also you are missing the point, after ten laps of hard driving the tyres drop to 40c, that’s physically IMPOSSIBLE, ffs can get that temp sitting them in aussie sun, read my links 2 posts above to real life application of this and expand your knowledge please before trying again.

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      10. I’m not sure why kunos doesn’t expose the carcass temps in the pits. I suppose that’s something they should add, among MANY things. Personally, I like to see progress on the tyre model instead of console career features because of the exact same reasons you want to see kunos represent a duplicate of ISI sims.

        If you’re starting at 80c, you must have tyre blankets on. I think they are on by default at race start to help with first corner issues and the like, turn them off. If you can’t maintain temp, all I can say is look at your setups and driving… I’ve NEVER had this problem unless I’m driving setups that simply aren’t competitive.

        If it’s just one car (12c?), try another and let us know. Specifically bugged car might be new information.

        So you’re saying you can’t access the surface temp output for the 3 lateral sections of each tyre? I know kunos discussed this when they launched the first version of this model. I forget the exact details but it’s either possible now or will be soon iirc.

        RF2 is reporting surface temps in the HUD primarily (among other things 😉

        RF2 does a great job of reporting your surface temps WITHOUT any HUD (as should be… I turn my HUD off, it’s call simulation..). Since AC’s updates, I can easily tell when my tyres are getting too hot and it clearly changes through the corners. Maybe we can’t see all of the data yet, but it certainly feels like it’s working at least mostly correctly.

        You’re still making assumptions based on ISI sims. If we want to talk about limitations with regards to setup simulation, we need go no further than the ‘one basic setup for rwd’ fudging. I mean, is this really your idea of a benchmark for setup simulation? It does NOT work that way in the real world. Even with RF2’s decent chassis flex, there’s still some pretty broken crap in their setups.

        I just don’t even understand what you’re saying. You seem to be reading surface temps in the pits after they have already cooled and or started a race with tyre blankets and weren’t running on a competitive setup/for some reason couldn’t keep the temps up.

        If you guys are jacking around values because it’s EASIER to drive ‘faster’ than the rest of the field at certain values (but overall not as fast as possible in terms of laptime…) and then wondering what’s wrong with temps… Uhh, surprise?

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      11. 80c is probably just a value that helps keep the outer temp up for a while until the pack spreads out. It’s a ‘pick up MP race’ design decision iirc and can be disabled.

        I can’t explain your problem with maintaining heat in the tyres. I think you’re running bad setups (yes, a bad setup can allow the carcass to cool excessively and thereby limit your overall temperature, not being able to maintain heat in tyres is a REAL problem for race teams).

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      12. “Tires will always cool a bit after coming off track no matter how quickly you get to them so as long as your procedure remains the same, you can still get excellent data. The relative value is what matters, how the temps changed when you did this or that adjustment.””

        Nothing in that entire paste was supportive of your ‘argument’. Actually, the only possible ‘point’ you made is that only the relative value may matter. I don’t even see how this is actually relevant.

        You guys seem to believe that you can do whatever the fuck you want and run around with ideal temps. lol

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      13. “”I’m not sure why kunos doesn’t expose the carcass temps in the pits. I suppose that’s something they should add, among MANY things. Personally, I like to see progress on the tyre model instead of console career features because of the exact same reasons you want to see kunos represent a duplicate of ISI sims.””

        No the temps they give in pits (I\M\O) is the temp you’d get from a pyrometer reading in pits, if not its even more stupid and irrelevant.

        “If you’re starting at 80c, you must have tyre blankets on. I think they are on by default at race start to help with first corner issues and the like, turn them off. If you can’t maintain temp, all I can say is look at your setups and driving… I’ve NEVER had this problem unless I’m driving setups that simply aren’t competitive.”

        Same with or without blankets,ffs, youd think Id not notice that?also 80c is still far too high even with blankets, it shows this in game and motec, you also conveniently miss out after 10 laps of hard racing it falls to a ridiculously low 40c.

        “If it’s just one car (12c?), try another and let us know. Specifically bugged car might be new information.”

        I tried several, including mods using old tyre model and new audi using v6, all exact same readings despite vastly diff cars and setups.

        “So you’re saying you can’t access the surface temp output for the 3 lateral sections of each tyre? I know kunos discussed this when they launched the first version of this model. I forget the exact details but it’s either possible now or will be soon iirc.”

        Maybe, but this is fundemental in how tyres work, and is even modeled in older sims, Kunos is MILES behind.

        “RF2 is reporting surface temps in the HUD primarily (among other things 😉

        RF2 does a great job of reporting your surface temps WITHOUT any HUD (as should be… I turn my HUD off, it’s call simulation..). Since AC’s updates, I can easily tell when my tyres are getting too hot and it clearly changes through the corners. Maybe we can’t see all of the data yet, but it certainly feels like it’s working at least mostly correctly.”

        Are you serious, do you not even play? what kind of sim racer are you, you should have all the modern titles, and yes rf2 is heads and shoulders ahead with this stuff, in race shows surface temps, when in pits gives you the pyrometer readings, it even has a excellent contact patch screen that details every centimeter touching ground, not only does it work in rf2 like should, you can use as a study sim and learn about this stuff.

        “You’re still making assumptions based on ISI sims. If we want to talk about limitations with regards to setup simulation, we need go no further than the ‘one basic setup for rwd’ fudging. I mean, is this really your idea of a benchmark for setup simulation? It does NOT work that way in the real world. Even with RF2’s decent chassis flex, there’s still some pretty broken crap in their setups.”

        And now you are starting to show lack of knowledge on subject, did you even read the link, here educate ya self from real life not ISI..
        http://949racing.com/using-a-tire-pyrometer-949-Racing.aspx
        So much more info then that.

        “I just don’t even understand what you’re saying. You seem to be reading surface temps in the pits after they have already cooled and or started a race with tyre blankets and weren’t running on a competitive setup/for some reason couldn’t keep the temps up.

        If you guys are jacking around values because it’s EASIER to drive ‘faster’ than the rest of the field at certain values (but overall not as fast as possible in terms of lap time…) and then wondering what’s wrong with temps… Uhh, surprise?”

        And these two last cements your lack of knowledge, without trying to be mean that is complete rubbish, read the link for crying out loud this is basic setup principles, not some made up shit, and after learning about real life applications maybe try other sims and see what happens,you trying to rewrite rules for kunos fuck ups.

        Like

      14. Nothing in that entire paste was supportive of your ‘argument’. Actually, the only possible ‘point’ you made is that only the relative value may matter. I don’t even see how this is actually relevant.

        You guys seem to believe that you can do whatever the fuck you want and run around with ideal temps. lol

        you fucking jack arse 40\40\40 temps ARE FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE IDEAL TEMPS AND THATS WHATS SHOWING OVER MULTIPLE CARS AND SETUPS FUUCCCKCKCKKC…..

        Oh man your fucking clueless pull ya head outta arse you ain’t got a clue what your talking about

        “”80c is probably just a value that helps keep the outer temp up for a while until the pack spreads out. It’s a ‘pick up MP race’ design decision iirc and can be disabled.

        I can’t explain your problem with maintaining heat in the tyres. I think you’re running bad setups (yes, a bad setup can allow the carcass to cool excessively and thereby limit your overall temperature, not being able to maintain heat in tyres is a REAL problem for race teams).””

        I could drive like a nana and get higher temps then 40 FFS, 40c is impossible to get no matter how little you drive, and THAT FROM IMPOSSIBLY HIGH 80c START.

        Like

      15. hash, why are you battling and concluding so much about work in progress tyre heat model? Did you analyze 1.4 yet? Looking forward to see your thread in the physics forum section.

        Like

      16. hash, why are you battling and concluding so much about work in progress tyre heat model? Did you analyze 1.4 yet? Looking forward to see your thread in the physics forum section.

        Ha I will, what I find funny is non of you jack arse jumpimng up and down have looked your self? why? lets see the correct results since you all pros, will test in few hours however camber issues have been reported still issue, no change, not good start eh

        http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/camber-effects-in-ac.28349/page-11

        Like

      17. Please.

        I’ve already read the fucking link quite some time ago. I have cars with adjustable suspension. I do not need you NOR ISI to tell me how to set up a fucking car, either in game nor in the real world.

        I’ve had rf2 since it was in first beta, I know exactly what the deal is with that game. I was explaining to you because you seem incapable of parsing anything that is not presented in ISI format, so I was beginning to think you didn’t understand what you’re seeing in RF2 either…

        Yeah, I see the temps. They indicate excessively high camber and bad driving. Did you just come off a straight or something? The rear is significantly hotter. Also, you should have at least a little grain or blister at this point, especially with you’re incorrect camber settings… Either you are making this shit up or you need to fix something with your settings.

        I’m not sure what the hell you’ve got going on but the test scenario and ‘data’ is obviously strange. Do I really have to go take screenshots and explain this shit?

        I guess it makes sense, considering someone here seems to believe that ISI doesn’t have several completely made up setups in terms of possible mechanical engineering range….

        Like

    2. “Yeah, I see the temps. They indicate excessively high camber and bad driving. Did you just come off a straight or something? The rear is significantly hotter. Also, you should have at least a little grain or blister at this point, especially with you’re incorrect camber settings… Either you are making this shit up or you need to fix something with your settings.”

      You just dont fucking get it do ya, It doesn’t matter car, track condition, camber setting or any settings, temps after a ridiculously high start temp of 80 show at front around 40\40\40,which is COMPLETELY WRONG,no its impossible, you fucking arse the screens are right there, in a perfect world should decrease by 10 from in to out very simple stuff, just the fact there’s no difference over all these variables is enough to show something very very wrong,we keep getting the impossible most ideal temp readings 40\40\40, the motec data is there too no FUCKING INTERPRETATION NEEDED, you are debating the fucking wrong aspect you stupid cunt the results in them self speak how wrong it is, only thing you could argue is I hacked the game to force these wrong number FUVK

      “i”m not sure what the hell you’ve got going on but the test scenario and ‘data’ is obviously strange. Do I really have to go take screenshots and explain this shit?.””

      Please please please boot it the FUCK UP AND SHOW ME, you’ve written a fucking novel yet didnt think they ill boot it up and see fuckling hell man, screens and motac data please.

      “I guess it makes sense, considering someone here seems to believe that ISI doesn’t have several completely made up setups in terms of possible mechanical engineering range….”

      Cool story brah, care to elaborate?dont forget AC screens etc new patch out, so you MIGHT get lucky, off ya go……

      Ive never seen such a deluded shill try to defend something so obviously broken, and ppl in kunos forums are finding exact same issues, let alone the bottoming out issues that make ride height irrelevant, go show me your data know pls.

      Like

      1. As I’ve already stated, your ‘data’ is not compliant with my observations I made right after the tyre model updates. I can produce screenshots and telemetry showing any values I wish while claiming any back story I like… How exactly does this prove or disprove my basic statement of “No, your telemetry and observations of vehicle performance and overall lap pace are not compliant with my own.”?

        Calm the fuck down and stop mashing on that keyboard. You seem to believe you’re on the cutting edge by observing telemetry in AC … Come on. You actually believe that it hasn’t already been looked at by me and at least 200 other people?

        You and Steve Smith seem to have a localized problem. I’m unsure if it’s physically tangible or more figment at this point.

        Like

  6. Oh damn, so it’s basically like the good old Codemasters’ F1 games exploit, where you’d gain tons of time if you ran absurd and unrealistic camber values.

    What a joke.

    Like

    1. Is not about that. And if you think it is, show that exploit, because I think isn’t happening like you said.

      “where you’d gain tons of time if you ran absurd and unrealistic camber values.”
      Tell me which are those absurd and unrealistic camber values? I’d really like you to take a screenshot of the setup screen and show us how much camber you can put and if it is unrealistic.

      Like

      1. Yep, it is. Every game I´ve played (2010-2014) every other camber setting other than maximum is useless. You just set it to maximum and enjoy the ride.

        No extra wear. No increased braking distance. No decreased traction. Only more lateral grip. Add maximum toe out and you´re ready to be a pro scrub.

        Like

    2. To be fair F1 cars nowadays run as much camber as possible on the front tires because due to all the torque of the new engines etc. on 9 out of 10 tracks rear tires degredate faster than front tires.

      Like

      1. Nope. China, Spain, Silverstone, Suzuka, Malaysia, Hungary… are all front limited. Also, in stop and go tracks (which are rear limited) you can´t afford to run max front camber since you need decent straight line braking.

        Like

      2. Literally every time I’ve heard a driver complain on radio about tires was “my rears are gone”, “I have no grip out of corners anymore”. Also, have you seen the amount of camber they are running on the front tires? They are easily running 5° front camber while running ~2.5°-3° on the rears.

        Like

      3. No Sev, in modern F1 fronts are around -3’5, rears are around -1.

        They need MORE camber in tracks like Suzuka to get maximum contact patch and grip during the sustained lateral efforts.

        They need LESS camber in tracks like Canada or Monza because they need braking and traction.

        In rear limited tracks (stop and go) you don’t crank up front camber just because “it will last anyway”. You need the braking ability and you don’t have huge lateral efforts, so you use less camber.

        Like

  7. Regarding brake balance, something touched upon briefly in this article: in several third party mods I’ve noticed some crazy default values jacking 70%+ towards the front of the cars, which make them handle like public transport. One in particular, the Audi S1 defaults at 72/28 and goes straight on at every braking point pretty much regardless of input. If you switch it to something sane around 58-60 it starts acting like you’ve yanked the handbrake at every turn despite being a fairly conservative setting. I’ve noticed this in a few cars, including the F248 mod and the brand new 288 Evo mod – which this issue aside are pretty good fun.

    Is this a flaw in the mods themselves or yet another niggling Kunos fuck up?

    Like

    1. That’s most likely the standard brake balance distribution from these road cars. Even the BMW M5 F10 that I used to drive for the past 3 years had measly rear brakes. While the discs were similar in size (400mm front, 396mm rear), the front brakes posess a 6-piston caliper, while the rear has a single-piston caliper….rear brake pads are also about half the size in terms of volume and measurements than at the front. Road cars are usually built to understeer into oblivion during a heavy braking maneuver because crashing into a tree with the engine infront of you is safer for a passanger then going into a tree sideways.

      Like

      1. Nice car. Still, will changing from 72 to 62 irl completely switch braking characteristics? I appreciate that the Audi S1 was understeery by nature due to having the engine over the front axle but does it make sense for the brake setup to exacerbate it? Tbh this combined with myriad other issues has left me barely touching AC. The AI alone is a big fuck you to many people who want offline racing.

        Like

      2. See the other reply to my post, it certainly would. While I’m no engineer, changing brake balance by a few percent definitely changes braking characteristics a lot. Changig brake bias too much to the rear without being changing the rear suspension geometry (or at least changing the setup at the rear) will usually result in a mega-oversteering car. I could try and explain it based on physics but a) I’m not 100% sure what I would say is correct and b) it would take me too long to do it and I cba 😀

        Like

      3. Yes, excellent explanation. Allows the standard driver to brake all out and steer at the same time without the back coming around haha.

        It’s a shame that road cars have to be toned down like that 😦

        Like

    2. The point where braking balance shifts depends on the loads on each tire (and slight difference in compounds ) – for example a car with 50-50 weight distribution is gonna shift to 70-30 under heavy braking, then a brake bias of 72 front would understeer, one with 68 front would oversteer, for the most part a couple percent change is gonna be a noticeable difference.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. >Gran Turismo has camber issues, too
    >Some whiners on GTP drop GT for AC
    >This article comes up

    Regret now, people of GTPlanet’s GT6 Epic Whining and Crying thread?

    Like

    1. Gtplanet is chock full of apologists each and every way

      >praise gt6, get apologists kissing your ass
      >criticize it one way, you’re the devil

      Autism central

      Like

      1. It goes both ways. Many of the pessimists on that website believe that any racing sim that isn’t GT is revolutionary and extraordinary, when in reality, sims like PCARS, AC, and iRacing suffer just as many problems.

        Liked by 1 person

  9. I noted camber issue here about the time v1.3 was released. Anybody who’s ever done any RW racing knows the single most important parameter in setting up your car’s suspension is the tire temps across the tread. It’s how you know how to set the camber. Accounting for camber thrust, you want the inner edge to be hotter by a couple degrees. Kunos insisted that, with core (as opposed to surface) temps, the I/M/O values should be similar. Fine. But with v1.3 et seq., all values are useless because the ‘magic’ suspension keeps the tire perpendicular to the road at all times; no amount of camber setting (even extreme values) has much…if any…effect. If you have the time to waste, you can empirically try every possible combination of camber and pressure…or maybe just get lucky. Kunos has stoically ignored this gaping defect (they actually had it right…at least on paper…before v1.3), maybe because they are gearing up for the console ver. Everybody knows console players wouldn’t know a camber setting from a gudgeon pin. Amateurs….

    Like

    1. Why would they consciously ruin the game physics? Just because they are release AC to console as well? Wow great reasoning and logic.
      I don’t mind if there are flaws that will be fixed later, but I think is too far fetched to suggest sim devs are ruining physics on purpose.

      Like

      1. Have you been living under a rock? It’s perfectly well documented that Kunos caved under pressure from both McLaren and Ferrari to deliberately fudge physics. So yes, they are in effect intentionally ruining the car physics to appeals to a wider audience.

        Sim my ass.

        Like

      2. “under pressure from both McLaren and Ferrari to deliberately fudge physics”

        Which is bullshit, since the P1 is faster than the LaFerrari as god intended.

        Like

    2. ” Kunos insisted that, with core (as opposed to surface) temps, the I/M/O values should be similar.”

      Where exactly was this stated? Also, how exactly are you estimating the contact patch?

      “no amount of camber setting (even extreme values) has much…if any…effect.” Based on your perception and ability to drive the car in different styles? Interesting.

      So you think the drastically different turn in and obviously reduced longitudinal grip is just a random anomaly? You cannot brake nearly the same, you cannot accelerate nearly the same.

      I really have a hard time taking you seriously when you don’t seem to be capable of observing the differences.

      “they actually had it right…at least on paper…before v1.3”

      What exactly did they have right? The model is utilizing more data than it was before, so how exactly do you believe the relative contact patch due to camber adjustments has changed?

      I see little facts presented. I do see opinions that directly contrast with my own observations and kunos statements.

      Like

      1. e123 your not intelligently debating, just covering up and some how blaming the fucking driver, you written enough now to prove you really aren’t grasping these BASICS principles, take a breath hit google and put ya learning cap on, the difference should be felt and SHOW IN TH E DATA, with extreme stupid values you get 40\41\40 type BS thats so fucking off ain’t funny.

        Better yet load up motec and screens and show your results, something no AC fanboy has yet done, just very badly tried to shot me down.

        Like

      2. Allow me to be clear:

        Your results are inconsistent with my own in AC, although I have not (yet) tested the exact combination you’re using in the most recent updates.

        Your results and data are not compliant with what I’ve observed, so I have no choice but to assume 1) testing procedure is flawed or 2) this particular car (maybe even car+compound) is bugged.

        I don’t know what else to tell you. You’re making claims about an obvious issue that can be attributed to driver error, just as ‘Steve Smith’ is doing.

        If I couldn’t keep heat in the tires, wasn’t seeing reasonable levels of graining and didn’t see reasonably realistic reaction to contact patch and i/m/o temps…Well, I think you would have already seen the bug reports.

        People that actually care about AC progressing already looked for improved responsiveness from the tyre model updates and couldn’t figure out what the hell ‘Steve Smith’ was talking about.

        Now you’re talking about the same thing, also stating it applies to all cars. All I can say is… No… it’s very obviously is not working like that here. The telemetry and feel BOTH react largely as they should. I have no idea what’s going on with your situation.

        Like

  10. I see people here saying, essentially, “why criticise? it’s work in progress, it’s incomplete, they’re working on it” blah blah blah.

    To that I say…why then is it not still in early access? The game reached a supposedly “feature complete” full release well over a year ago. Is it complete or isn’t it?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. The tyres were “finished” in 1.0, 1.1, 1.2. But since v1.3 they wanted to expand certain physical properties and the heating model. But this isn’t done overnight, much less for as many cars.

      Like

    2. Well, if you listen to Sev and James, they think the tyre model was fine (even though kunos had discussed limitations) with 1.0.

      Screw trying to improve a pretty fucking important feature for a game claiming ‘simulator’, right? Let’s just fudge that shit as quickly as possible and get to work on PRC’s most important feature of the day.

      It doesn’t usually seem to be multiplayer racing, because not being able to change liveries in MP or not having the start ruined by jumps is just going to ruin the experience for everyone at all times.

      You know what’s great? Racing against the box car in RF2 MP. I fucking love that shit! How big is it? Surprise!

      Like

    1. This ‘railway arcade’ shite again.

      If you are going to criticise Kunos, put a little effort into your posts.

      I dislike the new PP filters in version 1.4 – AC looks like a blur with a lot of chromatic aberration added for that modern gmaing look so many developers are wanting.

      Like

  11. Is lovely how the haters talk more about AC than play their preferred sims. Do you guys even have a preferred sim or just hate this one in particular?

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      1. I will, just checked patch notes, no mention of any of this, so you guys putting a lot of faith in this 1.4 patch, what happens if find same or similar issues?.

        Like

      2. OK here we go
        -– GT3 and GT2 cars tyre heating improvements
        Considering I repeated these issues across several cars, including previous tyre models from v5,v5 and the new audi v6 tyre, we will see.

        Like

    1. What you mean is the tyre model is considered ‘state of the art’ by you; I cannot recall anyone else making that claim, not even ISI.

      How’s the ‘how to play rF2 on a keyboard’ community guide coming along? I’m sure a self-appointed physics guru such as Associator would demand a high quality wheel and pedal set to judge physics rather than the latest non mechanical keyboard from Logitech.

      Last question – is Hexagramme still the first rusty keyhole licker to comment on each post you make, Associator?

      Like

      1. After experiencing first hand the general intelligence and knowledge of the average “sim racer” Its no wonder ppl jumped on hex and Associator, I haven’t seen barely any incorrect statements from either, when not opinion,and display far more understanding then these fucking plebs coming out the woodwork.

        Its like watching the movie idiocracy, watching the mass unwashed accuse ppl of “talking like fags” and chasing ppl outta town because they dont understand them.

        Also SMS do you even know what state of the art means?

        The term “state of the art” refers to the highest level of general development, as of a device, technique, or scientific field achieved at a particular time.

        RF2 tyre model is the MEASURABLY best modeled outta all released non commercial sims,fact and is more than likely used in rfpro too if teams not using own data, but you cunts dont even care, as long as car looks good and can drive in circles ya all good.

        Liked by 2 people

  12. Oh boy, where to start on this…

    Maybe with a disclaimer: I am not an AC (or Kunos) fanboy, neither do I own a copy of it (or any other Kunos game). However, I did play it, and yes, there are things that felt a slight bit odd about it, while other feel quite okay.

    But the game itself should not be the topic of my comment. I would like to talk a bit about what came to my mind in the first place, when I read about some guys blaming a game for not giving results that seem to be mandatory for some inputs.

    Racecars, especially race tires are a very good example for non-linear input-output behavior, also not uncommon to be totally against the expectations. Some tires need a hard push to start working, others would start to rip apart instantly under these circumstances. Same with static and dynamic suspension parameters, radial tires are generally very forgiving when it comes to camber setting or tire pressure, bias-ply tires usually have a wider temperature window. But as mentioned above, not seldom these assumptions about gear can be totally wrong, that’s why teams spent incredible amounts of money on testing (daily track rental fee alone is comparable to the yearly salary of an engineer…), so they can experimentally evaluate how their stuff works in combination.

    These tests often bring you to a setup you didnt think of before, like with extraordinary high values, which theoretically are supposed to be worse, but are actually superior. Nothing to worry about, just refine your theory to understand it for the future.

    But back to what I actually wanted to talk about. Four degrees of negative camber are not necessarily out of the range where a tire gives you satisfactory values for cornering force, without getting shredded by temperature or ripped apart because the contact patch is getting smaller. As mentioned before, radial tires are far less sensitive to camber changes, because the rigid tread keeps “lying” almost flat on the track surface, and more force is reacted by the sidewall. This results in more evenly distributed temperatures on the tread pattern. A Porsche 911 GT3 Cup (991 Series) was allowed to use up to 4.5 degrees of negative camber on the front axle, and yes, they used every tenth of it while racing. Same thing when it comes to Formula One. A leaked setup sheet of Lotus with driver Kimi Raikonnen from the 2012 pre-season stated that the car was running -3.5deg of camber, combined with -1deg of toe on the front axle. (Quick annotation for those who do not remember this season: Raikonnen finished third in the drivers championship, not to compare with the 2015 season…) Together these values should cause the car to eat tires like the Garfield does with lasagna. But it actually was a fast and enduring setup.

    Lets fast forward to the statement that more camber on road cars brings more performance. On track, it does*. PERIOD. The small star already mentiones that there is a but, and here it comes: This is based on the fact that road cars have an adjustment range for the camber of slightly more than nothing. The camber adjustment on road cars is supposed to make every car of the production series have the identical wheel allignment, even when the wheel loads are different, caused by the unique interior, exterior and powertrain configuration of each car. Even sportive road cars are no exception here. Example? Sure. Porsche Boxster (2015) approved front axle camber range from negative .4 to negative .9 degrees. That’s not very much. With such a little approved range of adjustment, there is no need to design it to have 5 degrees of adjustability, and road cars usually end up with a possible range to adjust your static value between +- .5 to +-1 degree. In this context a road car is faster on track with maximum of negative camber.

    Again I would like to mention that I do not say that everything that Kunos states is pure gold, nor that AC is the ultimate sim, but I do like to point out that there is a bit of truth (or even a bit more) in what some of you call simply bullshit…

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Dude you completely missed the most obvious issue, let me copy and paste, however your response has been 1 of few to actually try and tackle issue intelligently..

      It doesn’t matter car, track condition, camber setting or any settings, temps after a ridiculously high start temp of 80 show at front around 40\40\40,which is COMPLETELY WRONG,no its impossible, the screens are right there, in a perfect world should decrease by 10 from in to out very simple stuff for a ideal setup,but can be wildly diffrent across tyre (more often than not) depending on variables(setup,track,car etc) just the fact there’s no difference over all these variables is enough to show something very very wrong,we keep getting the impossible most ideal temp readings 40\40\40, the motec data is there too no INTERPRETATION NEEDED.

      This is more than “camber” issues, its the entire tyre model behaving incorrectly as far as can see AC doesn’t even model I\M\O as no output for data for it, unlike other sims collected telemetry for it, there fore making camber values completely irrelevant, you should destroy tyres fast with ridiculus camber and unevenly none of this is shown in slightest

      Like

      1. Can you show on video you starting with 80ºc tyre warmers and then how you drive and how the temperatures develop during your driving, and then how the temps are at the end when you pit.

        Will be much more easier to then spot any inconsistencies from you and or from the game.

        Like

      2. How about the tele data I plastered in steam forum, you can drive like a nana and get better heat, again why hasn’t a single person tried this themselves to prove me right or wrong, download tele collector, boot up AC, start race, take setup screen pcis, and tele pics simple, its a observation not a conclusion I come here with.

        Like

      3. why you don’t use apps from the game, and not make a continuous video with apps on screen while you drive and then esc to pits to see the car status.
        For apps, you have telemetry app that has several pages inside, you have car physics app, etc. Just activate dev apps in assetto_corsa.ini in your steam installation/assetto corsa/system/cfg

        Like

      4. Will do, but the motec tele collected is from same channels feeding those apps, but will be good for live readings thanks,are you gonna take my advice and try yourself?, I CAN’T belive no one tried it yet its not hard let me know your readings.

        Like

      5. “RF2 tyre model is the MEASURABLY best modeled outta all released non commercial sims,fact and is more than likely used in rfpro too if teams not using own data, but you cunts dont even care, as long as car looks good and can drive in circles ya all good”

        Thanks for the cunt reference; a lesser person may just presume an inbred kangaroo fucking bogan was incapable of responding to a comment made to someone else, hence the cunt comment. Apart from the rather bogan outburst, you made some sense in that rant.

        I do know what ‘state of the art’ refers to, thanks for giving all of us a quick refresher. No one apart from rFPro and ISI know just how much is shared between the two companies and stating it’s ‘more than likely used in rfpro too” is pure conjecture.

        As for Hex and Associator, these two have brought heat on themselves for their endless trolling of every forum about how superior rF2 is to everything else available whilst completely ignoring rF2’s shortcomings. They’ve done far more harm than good even though they are fundamentally correct about rF2 being the best all-round sim available.

        My SMS handle isn’t worship for SMS, Ian Bell and his lot have released 4 buggy games on the trot and show no signs of releasing a game that isn’t broken and missing a slew of features promised during development.

        Go get laid (or have a wank if you don’t have a partner) and drink a beer – life is far too short to be hung up on the short comings of video games.

        Cheers.

        Like

      6. @SMS BOGAN wtf, I call you a perfectly acceptable noun and you call me a bogan, how dare you, how very very dare you.

        no really me best friend is a good cunt, my dog a smelly cunt,my boss a stingy cunt, one of my workers a funny cunt, and my missus a noisy ….., yep thats the only place dont wanna use cunt, I try not to call me kids little cunts either, at least not in earshot, oh god maybe Iam a bogen cunt?

        Besides one thing this write is wrong about is Im a kiwi, you know like a ozzy, but cooler,less annoying and generally better at sports, and our bogans are far more intelligent than those sledging sheep shaggers across the ditch.

        Like

    2. “that’s why teams spent incredible amounts of money on testing (daily track rental fee alone is comparable to the yearly salary of an engineer…”
      I don’t know a single engineer who only makes $25k lol 😀

      Other than that, I agree with you. Taking a road car as an example for tire temps, camber etc. wasn’t a very good thing to do, however I have found the same things on the GT3 cars during the 1.0-1.2 time of AC. The correlation of camber and tire temperature just isn’t there, or it’s modelled in an extremely dumb way with no relation to reality.

      Like

      1. Not sure if meaning my testing, I only very briefly tested the audi road car as only v6 version, infact dont even know why streetcars are mentioned, this is track racing, and even though this issue would effect road tyres too, its effect would be a lot smaller,but saying that road tyres are also a lot more prone to overheating under conditions that would not be considered extreme in racing, so this issue like all tyres in game make it (in gamer lingo i guess) “OP”.

        ” The correlation of camber and tire temperature just isn’t there, or it’s modelled in an extremely dumb way with no relation to reality.”

        I honestly dont believe its even modeled properly, AC as far as can see doesn’t even have output channels for I\M\O so how is it collecting this data? I believe the figures in setup screen is just the basic tyre temp, with one or two degrees canned difference, so easy fix for kunos as they can just “fudge” a more realistic number as not getting from simulation.

        Like

    1. only how it feels. doubt he played round with the settings much. id say this is a matter of the more complex the tire model the harder it is to get right.

      Like

  13. Hash, I agree with you that something feels terribly odd, concerning the temperature stuff in AC. I also understand and agree that there are some more flaws with the overall simulation model for the suspension.

    As mentioned in my post, the game and its problems should not be my main topic, but to show that many who raise their voice have no clue how racecars (and the parts they consist of) actually behave on a track. After some years of dry theory, I had to accept that a car on track does things slightly different compared to the lectures about things like vehicle dynamics I attended. Many things that people point out are rules of thumb that are more or less true, unfortunately on the less than on the more side…

    Who postulated the law that a tire works best when you have a temperature gradient of 10°C over the treadwidth? I know that I start to walk thin ice by stating this, but it is only a convenient point to start with, not an actual goal in your suspension setup.

    Sev, discount engineers which travelled back through time to support their families in the future are on the rise 😀 Even when my comparison was close to an exaggeration, a team I know paid more than 50k Euros per day for a Formula One certified Track in Spain, during pre-season. Well, engineer starters salary 😀

    The road cars where mentioned in the statement of Kunos themselves, I picked up the topic to show that many have wrong ideas about adjustability on road cars, compared to racecars.

    And finally about tire models. They tend to give strange values when you only look for certain correlations, yes. The correlation between camber and temperature of the contact patch is heavily influenced by caster, kingping inclination and finally by the tire itself. But under most circumstances there is still a reasonable correlation noticeable. Again, starting with the thin ice walk here, but it needs a good driver who can bring a car to its actual limits when you are looking for reasonable data. Even when some guys here have proven themselves as fast enough for this task, my experience tought me, that most of us (including myself) are not that kind of drivers. What I basically try to say is, that maybe tire models are a bit dumbed down, because otherwise most of us would not be able to drive those pretend racecars we love so much in a racecar-like fashion…

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    1. Check out version 1.4, that brought further development to the tire heating model and possibly other aspects. Mainly GT3 and GT2 cars, but some road ones too are good on v5 an v6 version of the tyre.
      Or if you don’t own the game, maybe you’ll get the chance at a friend that has the game.

      “What I basically try to say is, that maybe tire models are a bit dumbed down, because otherwise most of us would not be able to drive those pretend racecars we love so much in a racecar-like fashion…”
      In real life, race cars tyres are difficult to drive optimally for the first 1-2 laps? And then during the race if you lose the pace or go off road, the initial difficulties start again?

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  14. “What I basically try to say is, that maybe tire models are a bit dumbed down, because otherwise most of us would not be able to drive those pretend race cars we love so much in a racecar-like fashion…”

    Dude I know AC fans that would hunt you down and try kill you to suggest such things., but thats exactly what been thinking, ppl claim all worked fine, then console announcement, then ow despite having “readings” in setup, it appears completely “canned”, coincidence? Im home now and gonna try 1.4.

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    1. To me cars are more difficult to drive since 1.3 / 1.4 than they were in 2014 and first half of 2015. More difficult doesn’t immediately mean more realistic, but to me just blows out the water the idea that kunos is dumbing down the game to cater to console crowds.
      Tires nowadays in AC have a deeper experience while driving and maintaining them, you actually struggle to have the optimum pace, and you “can’t” do it straight away.
      This comes from some changes to tire physical properties and equations, as well as the heating model.

      Hash, I would like for you to video document your findings, if possible. Then will be easier for everyone to understand what’s happening and to what things you are referring. You don’t need to talk in the video, just drive with the car(s) while game telemetry apps on screen, and then car status. Also the car physics app on screen.

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      1. Maybe you’re just not very good?

        Again, I ran a race at the Nordschleife a few weekends ago. Not a pickup race against the AI, but a live endurance race against human competitors. At the end of eight laps, it was only my fatigue that made driving difficult, not the (lack of) tire wear.

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  15. Tires nowadays in AC have a deeper experience while driving and maintaining them, you actually struggle to have the optimum pace, and you “can’t” do it straight away.
    This comes from some changes to tire physical properties and equations, as well as the heating model.

    Im testing 10 lap races, those apps are fed by same data that motec collects, have no idea why need vidioes when evidence is there, testing right this sec will have more screens tele and in game, will get apps going too, a video of me hot lapping not gonna make difference.

    However enjoy my little blast in apex gt3 mod that I uploaded not long ago, as Im sure vidoe request amounts to “you are a crap driver:” which really has nothing to do with issue, infact the temps I get suggest Im driving perfectly which Im not, you’d actually get wilder temps with bad drivers as they are far heavier on tyres

    Top left corner, you can see the contact patch indicator with heat values in color very very interesting stuff imo…

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  16. OK 1.4 update, only quick try, 3 times Gt3 mp4 10 laps nords sprint, good news is the overall temps are far closer to reality, ending stint at 60 degrees average up front,this is mentioned in patch list (fixed GT2-gt3 temps) far closer but still a little low IMO, as was deliberately driving hard and leaning heavily on outside tyre.

    However the difference across tyre is still at 2-3 degrees odd, ok ok you say so what thats not too far at all from ideal right, well crank camber to max -5.0, annnnd, exact same end temps AND exact same difference between I\M\O as default camber, crank other way to zero same difference and same temp, despite MASSIVE camber changes.

    I also looked at available tele channels in AC ini files, and it has no I\M\O readings output, indeed there is only a average tyre temp.

    So IMO it appears these I\M\O temp diffs are simply the average divided by 3, highly canned in other words, so basically you cant rely on I\m\o to do any setup work period, despite doing on many other sims, although tbh your average AC player it appears to not matter, Stefano was right about his customers, dont bother responding picking my shit apart do you own tests and show me instead if want to disprove.

    the tyre model overall is appearing extremely canned.

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  17. ITT sim racer whose level of expertise can be described as “Australian” looks like a fool to anyone who’s familiar enough with racing tires to make suggestions about what the sims get wrong. Quality journos.

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    1. Hello, fuck you cunt,lets get that outta way,since I appear to be only honest one, you could of savef writing a entire paragraph by just using my first 4 words in this reply.

      Now got anything else to add to observation\results or even better a explanation?or you just gonna insult my poor ozzy cuzzys? Im a kiwi by the way, like ozzys but better.

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      1. Sorry, your results aren’t replicable enough, if you name a specific car/track/lapcount + screenshot then I can give it a go. Otherwise I’ll just pick the wrong car and we’ll go in circles with “mine’s at max negative camber and has huge temperature gradients, yours is and doesn’t”

        I didn’t describe you as Aussie, James did. In the spot where “well-known modder”, “sim developer” etc. goes in other articles.

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      2. Nords sprint,GT3 MP4,10 laps(but feel free to take temps at any point,as its appears always wrong), try default camber then max and min camber, but by all means try any car track combo as you will find same issue, I\M\O temps not modeled or broken.

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  18. Not that I’m really bothered if “camber” thing works properly or not in this so called SIMULATOR, but I do wonder what’s up with “camber” and “sim-racers”. Just a quick look an various forums for different racing titles (console and PC) , easily shows, there is always a bunch of those who doubt if camber is working or not in specific title.Very amusing indeed.

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