No Game Value

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Only a few short days ago, Paul Jeffrey of RaceDepartment.com pushed out a mid-season review of sorts for PC racing simulators Automobilista and Assetto Corsa, detailing how each simulator had evolved under the guidance of both Reiza Studios and Kunos Simulazioni respectively. The lengthy piece served as a solid positive recap that described the evolution of both titles throughout the 2016 calendar year, outlining the major changes fans of each game had been subjected to during the now all-too-common ongoing development cycles, which see products receiving major updates while in the hands of the consumers. However, in a rather shocking turn of events, some important individuals used the comments section of this celebratory article to voice their complaints with a genre that has unfortunately become a bit of a university laboratory, as finished video games have now been replaced with eternal science projects lacking any sort of completion date.

Sim racing YouTube personality Matt Orr, known better by his stage name of Empty Box, penned a highly uncharacteristic reply early on in the thread’s lifespan chronicling his lack of satisfaction with the genre as a whole. Orr draws attention to the lack of progress Reiza Studios have made on Automobilista – an issue some are basically choosing to ignore due to their allegiance to the developer – and voices his concern on whether Reiza 2017 will ever materialize within a reasonable time frame considering how racing simulator developers consistently struggle to meet self-imposed deadlines. Orr ends his post by listing a string of slow-to-be-implemented features in other titles, and finally states stating sim racing as a whole has “gone off the deep end.” Pretty shocking for a guy that many deem to be the ambassador of the community, the anti-PRC, if you will. This is someone who is supposed to enjoy sim racing for what it is, and right now, he’s not.

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But Matt wasn’t finished. After triggering a firestorm of comments that jumped on the popular YouTube personality for seemingly pulling a 180 in his stance on his favorite line of games, Matt responded with an extremely blunt take on the status of the genre. In an ironic twist of events, Orr believes the eternal quest for maximum simulation value to begin with – no, this is not a joke – has caused developers to basically ignore the traditional concept of finishing a game, instead pursuing a reality where “endless tire model updates” and “endless whatever updates” take precedence over creating a product that is enjoyable for customers to play, front to back. In Matt’s words, “game value is the problem with racing simulators.”

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And I have to agree with him. Drivetrain flex added nothing to iRacing, and it’s certainly not worth a fancy loading screen discussing the identical matter in RaceRoom Racing Experience as well. Most real life drivers were completely fine with how the beta version of iRacing’s New Tire Model handled back in the summer of 2011 – nobody in their right mind went on the forums and begged David Kaemmer to spend the next five years continuously updating the tire model at the expense of other unfinished or wonky elements in the physics engine. A whole bunch of people felt Assetto Corsa drove fine during the spring of 2014, and maybe needed a minor refinement or two based on user feedback – not ten fucking tire models while fans sat around on message boards asking for pace cars or night racing. And as Matt said in the posts I’ve supplied above, Automobilista is actually behind schedule right now. Reiza Studios are instead choosing to talk about a New ECU Model so two or three cars handle a bit better under acceleration – even though not a whole lot of people were complaining to begin with, and there is still much to be done according to Reiza’s outline for the sim – a title that has less than a year remaining in it’s lifespan before the next one is supposed to hit.

Does it look like the game they’ve described? Nope, not even close. It’s another rFactor. Still excited for those ECU changes? I think not.

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Simulation Value, in the most ironic chain of events, has basically ruined sim racing. Developers jerk each other off – as well as the community members whom they grow attached to – obsessing over details that are basically insignificant or impossible to notice for the average user, yet due to the size of their teams, not a whole lot else gets done to ensure the game itself is a complete and enjoyable product. Now, this would be fine if developers were releasing a re-package of NASCAR: Dirt to Daytona or Need for Speed Pro Street over and over again, but they’re not. There’s no career mode. There never is. There’s no tutorial mode or racing school, that’s now a thing of the past that only GTR 2 owners talk about. There’s nothing to unlock, no compelling artificial intelligence to race against when your buddies aren’t online, no in-house livery editor to throw together a nice ride at the click of a button, no XP level to grind out and swing around online as a massive virtual phallus, no upgrades to buy for your car or your shop, no cars to collect and switch between based on the location, no damage to repair as a punishment for your driving sins, no killer tunes by bands you haven’t heard of, and racing online requires gaining entry into a virtual tree house just to have a semi-decent field of drivers on the grid for one night out of the week.

Each new title is an old sandbox like the one before it. And there’s an increasing amount of people who’d like to do more than just aimlessly play in an empty sandbox, rather than be handed a slightly different shovel every two months.

 

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114 thoughts on “No Game Value

  1. ALL MUSLIMS DESERVE NO RACING GAMES OR ANY FUN AT ALL FOR THAT MATTER. THEY SHOULD BURN ETERNALLY IN MAJOR TRUTHS WRATH OF BURNING LIQUOR WITH MR. LAHEY! MUSLIMS PRETEND NO ADDED VALUE TO THIS WORLD,ONLY CANCEROUS TERRORISM!

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    1. Agree, Muslims, Asians French, Arabs, Italians, all should be banned from SIM racing, that rule would also get rid of 99% of the Gays too.
      Might as well throw the germans in to, the only Germans who have been worth their Salt were the Nazi’s.
      Germans were hiding behind a tree when god handed out personalities.
      Oh and Dutch South Africans, Zyklon B is all id be giving them for xmas, actually that goes for all sth africans.

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  2. Who forgot about us? ;( We deserve to be burned and raped to. We as a redhead species deserve no place among normal human beings as we are just soulless trash rednecks born to be bullied for the rest of our low piece of shit lifes.

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  3. Developers over promise to sell games and under deliver because the games are to complex/they don’t have enough money/they run out of time.
    More developers should follow Codemasters example with Dirt Rally.They beta tested it and it released with few problems.Ok it has no DLC,not enough Rally X tracks and not enough stages,but maybe if it had twice the stages and all the WRX tracks it could have been a mess like Project Cars which was to ambitious for the studios capabilities.

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  4. While i agree with Orr, reiza is currently adding new content and features, fine tuning what is already in game till they go for full release.

    For them it kind of make sense continuing working on all aspects of a game (and perhaps using ams as testing platform) considering that a lot of what we have in AMS is gonna be base for reiza2017… They still have almost year and 4 months to present first alpha/beta builds of reiza2017.. Nobody is expecting full release of it in 2017

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  5. Warning This comment was translated through google translate:

    I think one of the reason why simracing is in this stat of boring unfinished sandbox, it’s because main developers which are in command of the majority of sim titles nowdays have basically zero sense of risks, they are scared of everything, maybe because they can’t lose founds with their project or they are a bunch of incompetent fools who can’t finish most of the aspects of their software.

    Just look at Stefano who instead of climbing the technical walls, he pass his time arguing why x feature cannot be implemented and why their are useless, he really does give an air of an lazy easy money guy who only seek for the easiest ways of living, where are innovation ? where are the technical miracles which open new horizons ?

    We only have lazy ass scared developers who can’t afford a shit!

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    1. So you’re complaining that Stefano is responding to players question they have for the game and about suggested features?
      You’re the wrong here buddy, not the developer. If you don’t agree with the way they do things, then make yourself a sim racing game and we’ll see how you deal with all this. I’m looking forward to review your sim.

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      1. Stefano and other main devs lack of innovative approach when dealing with software development, also they don’t know the word “compromises”, that’s why they can’t mix simulation value with gaming features, it’s far more easy to apply mathematical formula to simulate something than creating and scripting a gaming like functionality because books nowdays just show you everything’s, while features and functionality require developer skills and experience.

        So to be brief, Simulation world lack of talented developers, it’s simply as that, Stefano or renato or other lazy ass devs are not the savior of this niche industry.

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        1. Then you should play forza and gran turismo, seems what those devs do is everything you dream of. Sim racing games are below your standard, go, go play forza.

          Where is your game Majorly trustworthy, I want to review it. I want to see how good your creative and programming skills are. Maybe everyone will play your sim racing game. Come on, come up with a better alternative for game value.

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          1. Simracing isn’t incompatible with gaming value, it’s you and other devs who think simulate something must be translated in a form of an empty boring sand box like the PRC article mentioned.

            And I won’t develop a Sim if I can’t generate a good result with my skills, am not like you and other devs who pretend to be professional but with poor skills or two which result in a half finished broken sim, YOU should climb the technical’s wall instead of trying to find a shitty excuse to stop at it and say “yea, it won’t heppen”, or else go find another easy cash job that the kind of you guys dream of!

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            1. If you can’t accept devs answer that this and that feature or request won’t happen, the dev already equationated what it takes to develop it. That’s why you need to make a game and then we’ll see how you deal with people asking you tons of stuff. It comes a point where you don’t need to give big explanations but just discard it immediately.
              However if you ever watched Stefano’s YouTube streams you’d see he gives deeper explanations for several questions and requests, but for some is better to give a short no.

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  6. So basically you guys want another forza but made by teams with 10 or 15 guys instead of 400, I see.

    By the way the career modes of popular racing games are absolutely crap, random events that are boring as fuck again and again. Also, what about the online? Simracing scene is not in a situation now to split the user base even more by limiting the number of cars that you can use depending if you unlocked them or not in your stupid career modes. Same with car upgrades, something that was somehow available in rf1 and nobody gave a single fuck.

    Livery editors are needless, you can edit liveries properly with 2d editing software.

    Artificial intelligence isn’t worse than in most popular racing titles like forza or gt.

    Also it’s funny to mention that physics updates aren’t important, after making a circus few days ago complaining about tyre pressures in ac being broken.

    So in conclusion, if you want to play simcades, buy simcades.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Pop that prolapse back in MW, you can’t just walk around holding that thing, its unhygienic and a bit smelly to be honest, its not the best look.

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    2. >Livery editors are needless, you can edit liveries properly with 2d editing software.

      And it is complicated. With a livery editor you can directly preview your livery, no need to worry about screwing up layers, etc.

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  7. I would like to write about how I saw this way before the “current” sims hit the market. But I won’t, because after 3Am.
    Instead, some thoughts condensated from a discussion I had with a console gamer.
    Racing games for as long as I have played them have been about grinding and unlocking stuff in the “notSimulation” world. And this has been fine for me, but I did really welcome the freedom of choice that project cars gave me. There was no grind. I could take any vehicle and just blast away, granted I didn’t spawn to the void 😀

    So console gamers want PC simulators and PC simmers want console games?

    No. Everyone(tm) wants a structured environment where the game gives you a sense of progression. If you strip away everything but the core idea of the game, there is often very little left and it can get dull relatively fast. This is specially true for something as “simple” as pretending racing cars. Put some unlockables and competition on it and the players will spend countless hours hunting the unicorn that shits bricks of xp to boost them on the charts. Keep the player attached, game design / drug dealing 101.

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    1. Case in point:
      War Thunder. (Air forces – “realistic Battles”)

      Spent countless hours on there over the last year of so as a side-kick at first, as an addiction later. Slowly creeping up to my first jet, now… …why?
      Because I get the sense of flying an actual aircraft while mouse&keyboard are perfectly-fine means of control. And of course: I don’t need to reboot into Windows first and/or setup ma racing-seat.

      But oh boy am I glad that ma pay-for Auto racing sims do not need this fucking grind! 😂

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  8. DR struck me as an experiment, initially launched without any hype or fanfare. but knowingly or not it fed a voracious hunger in the simracer appetite — the porential to be the spritual successor to richard burns rally. the dev team seemed almost rogue, at least -claimed- they really wanted to make a hardcore experience as the games root, & actively listened to & learned from user feedback. i think its noteworthy the career mode has zero dressing & makes none of the classical stabs at player immersion (yep, reiza or ISI could easily implement something like this); the graphics engine was 100% handed down, as were (i think) many of the stages, or at least the basis for them, & so they were able to have a narrow & ruthless focus on core the driving experience. and that last is the parallel i see w/ the sacred GTR2. all the major sims are incredibly broad & getting significantly broader. i don’t think i want that to change in the current crop, but of course it’d be cool to see some laser-focused sims that significantly sacrifice quantity of content for impeccable QA. if dirt rally can happen, then “GTR3” can absolutely happen. and im sure it must be disheartening to desire something so conceptually simple while finding its nowhere on any developers radar.

    “game aryton senna” sounded like it was to be an attempt at that ideology, but unfortunately i believe its a dead concept…

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  9. Matt is absolutely right about this. For all the progress that has been made on the simulation side, the game aspect of these titles has gone the opposite way. And oddly, a lot of sim racers seem to be ok with that. Then again, they’re idiots who are just deluding themselves into thinking this is fine because they will blindly accept and praise any product their favorite developer throws out there. I feel strange saying this but for all the faults of pCARS, it at least made some effort to present itself as a cohesive gaming experience, not just a hodgepodge assortment of vehicles and tracks with no form or structure.

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    1. no; simracers are ok with it because they want simulations for their simracing (and hundreds/thousands of $$$ worth of dedicated equipment). its a niche market, & that makes the titles what they are now — how much has the simulation side of GT, the F1 series, or forza advanced the past few years — YEARS — with unlimited budget, unparalleled access, & teams of hundreds/thousands? (and i dont know how the ‘gamey’ aspects of those first two have evolved, but i don’t get the impression its very well at all — and F1 is almost universally considered to have somehow actually gone backwards quite significantly). meanwhile, what has iracing done, in terms of its goal as a simulator, in the past year-two (& to come?). reiza in the past year & near future? isi…nevermind…but surely you get the idea. these advances do mean something; dynamic track & loose surface projects being worked on will, eventually, positively impact rally games forever. some of this ‘needless’ work will be groundbreaking, some menial, but as a guy who does enjoy the simulator aspect of simulators….its not needless. its absolutely vital.

      of course it isnt for everyone — i would say these titles in general are for literally almost no one — & i dont mean theres zero middleground. but theres very little in the way of coherent criticism from any of the individual userbases (outside of reiza; who frankly seem to be, not drowning in fanboys, but rather doing just fine, tangibly improving AMS each & every month).

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      1. Sim racers are ok with what exactly? Hot lapping forever alone at AC? Their poor atempt at a quasi gran turismo experience by offering a zillion pointless and half baked DLC? What is there to do with AC after 4 freakin YEARS of development? They have more squishy tires? How do you even KNOW that they are more realistic? iracing tires feel nothing like it, nor do rfactor2 tires, so you now have 3 representations of reality that are nothing like each other.

        People are growing tired of it, and the mere existance of PRC proves this. You can dream about “simulation value” all you want, but you are still sitting in your chair, believing whatever your fancy developer is tells you is “the most realistic experience” out there.

        There is one thing these people forgot, one thing that Grand prix 4 and the others before it did so so well. Its called “immersion” and “experience”.

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        1. and what do you do in other sims than AC? Apparently people don’t race in those sims. So your complains about AC are pointless as along with iracing, is the most active in sim racing. It isn’t a great feat in gaming, but much better then the other sims.

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          1. AC is a glorified Forza, so the crowd who think they are “too good” to be with the kids at forza, are around hotlaping lambos in AC, big deal…

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        2. Completely agree. Despite “simulation value”, these are games after all. There are no current gen sim which address the “game value”.

          Grand Prix 4, GTR2, are great examples where these two worlds of “values” met in the past, despite its well known shortcomings. For example, It’s incredible nobody can, at this age of technology, make a SIM with a competent and funny to drive AI like these both “stone age” titles. A good and challenging SP championship with real rules and challenging AI is the other thing the super duper sims doesn’t have, and developers doesn’t care about.

          I ask myself a lot of times why there are as many representations of the real physics as sims are out there, when reality is only one. There are one of them which is really close? May be none? I don’t know. I play sims because I like the challenge to drive a car as close as possible as a real car drives, but I want a game around that.

          If I want the real thing, nothing is as close as the real thing. Current sims are not even close, and never will be. So, you, developers, it’s ok to progress towards a more real tire model, but please give us a fkin GAME wrapping that tire model in the meantime.

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      2. So you’re telling me that I can either have accurate physics or I can have a career mode or a full series license, but I can’t have both? And your reason is because sim racers “want simulation?” That’s ridiculous, and isn’t much of an explanation. This is just some elitist trying to justify the lack of structure and content in these games.

        And that’s the thing… It’s a VIDEO GAME. It’s not a professional simulation product. It’s not even close so stop acting like it is. I agree with you that there should be solid physics underpinning the whole thing but not at the expense of it turning into an endless science project like AC or rF2.

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        1. no, my point is that you want accurate physics underpinning your full-series licensed career game, but you apparently don’t want those physics to evolve or improve.

          what has the “expense” of ACs endless science project been? i can see rf2 may have run into a problem with a model thats overly difficult & stifles development (tho thats just speculation on my part) — where is AC being stifled?

          and if you want to say consumer simulations are inherently elitist, whatever, but i suggest a new hobby.

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          1. Do YOU consider AC to be feature complete? I certainly don’t. I think that anyone capable of looking at that game objectively will see that it’s awfully bare bones. And it’s not the sims that are elitist, it’s the nerds who play them, you know, the guys who sit around arguing for hours which game has the best physics or is more accurate for a car they’ve never actually driven in real life. There are many elitists in this community, you can’t deny that. It is a problem.

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            1. its not a complete product, as id define one, & i agree its bare bones, although i don’t personally mind. my point is the idea that any specific development in its physics has hampered feature development doesn’t add up. aris does physics for the cars & tires. thats it. whats being inhibited by his, what, not just stopping? how the hell did this become a bad thing?? if anything, as has been stated even in this thread, it should disabuse elitists of the notion that there is a True Sim. an ‘accurate’ driving model is & has been a constant work in progress for all parties. that progress just happens to be both highly visible & live now due to the nature of digital gaming — ive never seen a reason given why these are bad things. they just seen to be called so because theyre highly publicized (doesn’t necessarily mean highly touted) in patch notes & official forum posts, & therefore make an easy rhetorical point that focus is being placed on something other than whatever some end user would like it to be.

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              1. I’m not saying accuracy in the driving model is a bad thing, I’m saying that a developer who spends time and effort and money working on a minute change that does not greatly affect the overall driving experience rather than investing in other areas of the game is a bad thing. The problem as I see it is not that these developers are incapable of getting the physics right, but that they have lost sight of what these games are supposed to be. The problem is that the racing sucks. If we’re going to stick with AC, poor damage model, poor flag system, atrocious AI, pit system was implemented almost as an afterthought. I mean it’s ridiculous. Of course, the issue is that they don’t have the cash or the manpower to do all this stuff. But to get to that point they need to make money. To make money they’d have to develop a more accessible game that would actually be capable of selling a significant number of copies and bring in new players. However, if they do that, then hardcore crowd would pitch a fit over it being “too casual.” So what’s the answer?

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                1. The answer is to take the risk and realise the market can go beyond the hardcore crowd.

                  Let’s just accept the fact that these “hardcore” players are the ones that have been holding these developers down.

                  “omg my car wont spin”
                  “shit dude wtf the ffb is just so wrong”

                  We have seen developers doing the same thing over and over again. But right now, I can safely say that AMS and AC have nailed it right in the handling/driving department. They’re both great in the driving department.

                  However, they both get boring really fast. With almost no online races available, the absent of an actually fun and rewarding career or championship mode makes driving against the AI feels unworthy of the time it takes to complete a single race.

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      3. Your honestly trying to say that iracing has advanced well in its 10+ years,dude lay off the crack man.
        Obviously your one of the forum regulars that gets her panties in a twist when anything but iracing is the best ever is quoted.
        Iracing feels and looks like a 10year old game,all of its major updates that actually added anything were done prior to 2011 anything since has been pathetic and not worth it.
        It’s the same with every pc racing SIM tho,they rely on the old faithfull “work in progres” as a failure safe.

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  10. Ahmen All most of us want is a game with a SOLID foundation some worth while features and just Stable not even amazing multiplayer a selection of tracks of different styles and 2 or 3 cars from the most common class’s and makers. Release this game and then you can DLC all you want if the foundation is solid you will sell those DLC’s like wildfire. But without a solid foundation all you are selling is smoke and mirrors and today the average consumer will see right through this and well then the HATE begins…

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  11. Asking what simracers want is the wrong question, most of us own or will buy the next money pit. It’s bringing up the next gen to expand the grids. It’s a numbers game. Matts right.

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  12. Haven’t been here for a while, but here’s my take:

    The main problem I think is we’re at a point in time where for some reason the racing genre as a whole will give us only one of two things; a great game with lots to do but limited or no, and I hate using this word, “simulation value” or you get a “great” simulator but with limited or no game value. It’s weird why this hasn’t crossed over more yet, especially when you think this would have been a honey-hole for maximum profits and exposure to sim racing.

    Currently the genre is divided. We have the sim racers, those who love simulations and painting skins, modding and racing online or in leagues and you have the console racer who likes to have middle round within arcade and simulation but with more rewards for what they do and unlock everything from cars, race suits, tracks and achievements. And no doubt this is the same for most people, including myself. I like to use rFactor, NR2003 and some of the Reiza titles to hotlap and have basic pure driving fun in and be able to make my own skins, but I also like to play games like the F1 Codemasters games or NASCAR Thunder 2004 on the PC because you had something to do and fight for. You could fight for championships or unlock the drivers you really wanted to play as or paint schemes and it is fun. DiRT Rally is so successful because it does both and it does both well. You have a career and unlockability while also having a simulation of driving rally cars. If Automobilista or Assetto Corsa was like DiRT Rally but with GT3 and (questionable) F1 cars plus all the other cars everyone wants to race as, then the environment and community as a whole would be so much more improved.

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    1. nothing more fun than having to spend hours in the brand new group B rally turbo monster you just splurged on so you can then ‘earn’ the right for it to drive as intended & not be artificially underpowered — THATS immersion! i mean im in NO WAY sitting there thinking “this would sure be more fun if i just DIDNT HAVE TO FREAKING DO IT AND COULD DRIVE THE DAMN CAR I CHOSE TO DRIVE” during EVERY SINGLE STAGE.

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      1. That’s what happens in the real word however. You don’t get to drive Group B’s in real life straight away until you become good and even then you’ll have to upgrade it to be competitive. As the saying goes, “Money equals speed, how fast do you want to go?”

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  13. Lets be honest, anything REIZA related….. Race Dept will be all over and all positive reviews regardless. What version of GSC will Reiza2017 be ?

    I agree with Major Truth, LFS has the most Simulation value

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    1. anything at least a decade old is great, its just not anymore because its so old but if it came out today, by god there would be no complaints. and there weren’t at the time, either.

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  14. Is quite ironic. This blog has based its articles mostly on complaining about physics, AI, and multiplayer, with the main targets being Project Cars and Assetto Corsa.

    The first didn’t see much improvement in those areas but the later did. The first has a better game aspect, with more racing features including dyn weather, but the later has the better physics, AI, and multiplayer, and possibly is starting to have better content as well.

    And then we see that James doesn’t play or care about Project Cars anymore, simply because it failed in being good for his simulation standards. But the same we can’t say of AC. So, apparently you do value more the simulation aspect than the game aspect. Which makes this article ironic. You’re complaining about devs investing in making better the simulation for the software and for the cars that we drive, but at the same time you will complain when they don’t. Sim racers are a tough crowd that don’t exactly know what they want.

    Guess what, taking care of the simulation (+AI and multiplayer) part is demanding and time costly if you have a small team like any sim racing game has, and the main software programmers are busy doing the essential for these games, which is physics, ai, mp, cars. If you want the features of F1 2016 on top of all that, then it becomes way more difficult. So first devs really had/have to take care of what we really care in a sim, which is the simulation, ai, and mp. But of course after that it will be nice to take care of the game value.

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    1. IF the best physics out there were a garanteed success, RF2 would be the dominant game, and would full of users. People flock to AC not because it has the best “simulation value” but because it has supercars to drive around the ring, thats the ugly truth that “sim racers” don’t want to admit, that most of them dont give a rat’s ass about racing, and only care about the GT car collecting part!

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      1. Not everyone likes rfactor physics. Their cars drive weird. And this is seen across all games based on rfactor, starting with project cars. The driving realism and feeling of the cars is better in AC, more like their real life counterpart. So more people chose AC as their sim because of that.

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        1. yup.. i love AC cuz the only god chosen sim that dont use that i’m nazi ISI engine even my toy steering luv it too, though i still play rf2 with the oval contents but the ai oval is fking retardo.

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          1. And you are being a shill for not agreeing with what I said. See.. is pointless to call people shills or fanboys, because is just as easy to call the other person a hater or ignorant.

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  15. This man has an empty box because it was originally a big box full of huge rubber dildoes and rubber fists, the box is now empty because he has pushed all those fists and dildoes deep into his rectal cavity and they remain there.

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  16. I believe developers have managed to go in a backward direction when it comes to sim racing titles , we do have great car models , tracks and graphics ……… what else do we have ?

    in most titles , no flag rules, no damage models (all of them suck), no pit stops , no random crashes with AI in most titles , no pace car , no excitement ………..It’s lap after lap of just boring shit!

    Talking of sim values , why is that I have a 600 HP car that wont ( pull the top of the custard) burn the tyres of the rim if I’m to crazy with it ? (project cars I’m looking at you).

    We are in first person shooter mode. (every game is the same ) Lap after fuckn Lap , sure they feel a little different.

    The AI in today games is a joke compared to the like of nascar 03 and GP4 (the crash physics are a joke also) in comparison to these titles , how in the hell do we go backwards ? Have a good look at crashes in Pcars pffft terrible!

    Unfortunately it seems to be about graphics and simulating the cars physics , everything else is a after thought , I don’t disagree that some of the titles do good things but they do more things wrong than right .

    Codemaster if they keep going in the direction they have started this year they will be on top of the pile by a mile , Dirt rally is a beautiful game to play , it feels wonderful and complete and fun to boot!

    F1 2016 is adding so many important features that may change the way we look at things, working flag rules , working pit stops and pit entry (with a pit crew) WTF ? 🙂 , Safety car AI blown engines & accidents , blown tyres , warm up lap and the list seems top go on.

    This is the shit Im looking for in a sim title and or any racing title , they cant go on just giving us boring old lap after lap after lap …….

    Add some life to the titles ad some realism not just simulated cars. its 2016 not 2003 ffs!

    Have a good day Gentlemen .

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    1. Agreed. F1GP on my old Atari ST with half a megabyte of RAM and an 8MHz Motorola 68000 processor managed to have marshalls waving the appropriate flags, pit crews that were reasonably animated for the time and did what you’d expect, and a proper sense of progression as you’d complete an F1 season (of course the driver names were fake for licensing reasons but they were easy to change).

      That game got me hooked on racing games and the sequels kept me going for a while. I drifted away when nothing new came after GP4, and came back via iRacing. It gave me the fantasy that yeah I was fighting with Nigel Mansell and Ricardo Patrese, AI that put up a reasonable fight and wouldn’t all wreck on the first turn, and proper immersion. Somewhere that got lost.

      Flight sims have gone up a similar blind alley I think, focusing too much on the flight model and not enough on the game. I used to love F-19 Stealth Fighter because it was a fun sim but also immersed you in the life of a pilot with the briefings, the weapon selection screens, a little vignette in the bar after the mission that might reflect your success or failure etc.

      Multiplayer isn’t for everyone (as evidenced by the piss-poor state of online racing, I’d say even iRacing’s participation is on the wane [perhaps this is why the prices went up]). To get more people racing, you have to give them a good offline experience and bring them into sim racing that way. Eventually they might feel like braving the online world (and yes that needs sorting too but that’s a post for another day, suffice to say I really do wish iRacing had some fucking competition to keep them on their toes). More racers means better racing for all of us. It’s worth the effort.

      Like

      1. Any racing game that simulates a series in specific will also simulate the features for that type of racing.
        But if you have general sim racing game, then you don’t need all of that. Without mentioning that is harder and more complex to simulate those kind of features and animations in modern games than in the old school ones.

        Taking a look at that video you posted, that’s just a basic video game. Any skilled enough programmer could make it today, with the same graphics and functionalities. But majority of the customers wouldn’t be satisfied with that purchase, which means you’d have a lot more work and would be more difficult to scale up to modern times the things that existed in the old games.

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        1. Really? They would? What is exactly the difference in programing a AI? Tell me, i am dying to know what changed in the real of programming that would making programming AI routines different.

          Like

          1. Have you actually watched the video you posted and noticed that there was no fighting for position from the AI vs the player? They are just doing a predetermined routine.

            Modern sims need to be much more complex, especially when you’re dealing with different cars, tracks, tyres, environment.

            But my first reply to your post wasn’t that much about AI, was about all the other things you said the game has and some of the newer ones don’t. Because scaling up all those features and functionalities becomes more complex to make due to pc performance, animation, graphics, logic. I’m not saying this is impossible to do in modern sims, just that it requires more man power in terms of programming compared to the less work required to develop the same things for micropose f1gp. And then it depends if you want your game to be a simple sim racing game or have many things from real life official races. And I guarantee you that the work Codemasters has to do for F1 2016 compared to micropose f1gp is so high that can’t really be comparable, because it only makes sense to compare games from the same era.

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  17. >Simulation Value, in the most ironic chain of events, has basically ruined racing games.

    Fixed, otherwise it is spot on. I once said on a racing roleplay Discord channel that isiMotor is basically the Unreal Engine of simracing. And many devs (with notable exception Kunos, which actually have the guts to develop their own engine, with mixed results) chose to license isiMotor because it is cheaper rather than developing your own.

    The quest for simulation value is also what killed market for arcade racers (at least those that have licensed or realistic-looking unlicensed cars AND without elements of combat in it). IIRC Racing Apex, an arcade racer with Virtua Racing-styled graphics, literally had to add combat elements in it, feeling the game would be boring without it. Couple that with hardcore simracers’ shit taste in racing games in general, and you have the whole state of racing games in general right now.

    Like

  18. Interesting discussion.

    First I’d like to try and identify some aspects that construct the current (and past) situation of small developers producing simulation racing genre titles:

    1 – Small team composed of mostly software engineers and programmers.
    * Technical/skill boundaries to what they know and can do.

    →2 – Business plan that fits a small team.
    * Low resources means central content investment.

    →3 – Pursuing understood market segment.
    Previously, well identified set of consumers
    * Financially safe, known to invest in complementary experiences
    * Interested in technical aspects regardless of technical knowledge

    →4 – Design within limitations.
    * /Toolbox/ design. Functions of tools (tracks, cars) rule-setting and play are well understood, the user is presented with them to construct their own game experience, all within intended design.
    * Product core is physical simulation, functional, modelling. →2

    This feedback loop is seemingly enough to provide these studios with a financially stable business. The trade-off is that they corner themselves into a model and market that isn’t favorable for out of the ordinary expansion.

    The question about “game value” is a good one when we look at the genre and related markets though.

    Undeniably, the bare necessities for a /game/ (tools/rule-setting/play) are included even in the simplest design as pointed above for their intended purposes (competitive, automobile circuit racing). But for overall engagement it’s clearly not enough to the large set of consumers.

    The article and comments here are precise on what they may be missing or not.
    Be it entertainment, novelty, challenge or the carrot.

    I’d go a bit forward and say, without much evidence and a lot of bias from reading racing game related, that this segment they adjusted to is diseased and they should cut themselves from this rotten limb.

    – Poor controller options do not “sift the casuals”, it makes the majority not even entertain the idea of play your game enough and maybe invest $150+ on a peripheral to improve their experience.

    – Basic matchmaking and club/league organization does not “sift the casuals too lazy to join a specialized forum”, it just makes your servers have 100 players interested enough to jump hurdles at any given time. I know this is a costly investment, so their risk avoidance here is reasonable but it only hinders their growth.

    – There is no “pandering to the casuals”, there’s ignoring entry points for larger bases.

    – Majority of “hardcore users” have no point of reference to their assessments, no access to data or physical understanding of what is or isn’t being simulated and its fidelity level.

    In the end, whether they believe it or not, they are consuming an entertainment product and not making engineering valuations on a human-in-the-loop test set or training for their day job, because given the computational short blanket, they won’t manage to do either, so all developers will have for feedback are conflicting complaints and a pointless quest leading to low confidence and directionless design decisions.

    Liked by 2 people

  19. It would actually be nice if developers speak out. For example, if I were to build a simulator, I’d specifically would state that it IS NOT A VIDEOGAME and not meant to be one. Speak out that fact when you don’t develop it as one! People only confuse themselves looking for game elements in sims which, as a simulator are brilliant. As a videogame, they miss all ingredients there are to make a videogame work. When will people accept they are completely different things and stop slandering the developers for making one or the other?

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    1. What’s different between a sim where you can race cars against other players or against AI on a race track vs counter strike where you play online or with bots against opponents?

      There isn’t any mind blowing game around counter strike. Is a simple normal first person shooter that has really good gameplay, high skill ceiling, and people usually play team vs team on community server or matchmaking. CS is the same as a sim racing game, it has a gameplay in this case simulation of real life which lets you race against other opponents. Sims have high skill ceiling too.

      But more people like first person shooters, everyone has a pc capable enough to run the game at 60fps and everyone has a compatible mouse and keyboard. In a simulator you need a wheel with ffb. Gamepads are fun, for some people are viable for competition, but for most a wheel is the recommended. But even gamepads don’t come by default as keyboard and mouse.

      So in conclusion, both sims and counter strike are videogames. But they are in different realities of videogames.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. I mean, it’ll be a game no matter what…it’s not professional simulation software and it never will be. I think a lot of sim racers like to think of them as not being video games because they take the whole thing far too seriously, but at the end of the day it’s still an entertainment product, it’s still a game. I’m sorry if that wounds your ego but it’s the truth.

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  20. Sim racers wonder why this genre is so niche and it’s due to the current PC sims having no game value at all. All of them with the exception of iRenting (which you have to subscribe to play) have a garbage online structure, incompetent AI, and barebones game modes. There is no longevity or replayability factor for these games.

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    1. That is as games, they simply fail to offer the users any game related gameplay. There are no ways of logical advancements into the game, no way to improve by aid of power ups, skills, stats, upgrades. The player is not REWARDED for play, or re-play. The sense of satisfaction is low for gamers, there is a high learning curve. There is no music, not alternate gameplay elements (soccer with cars, whatever). There is simply no sense of advancement, a game you can not beat. All of this is turing people away from simracing.

      By all intents and purposes, the generic racing sim doesn’t fit the bill at all if you’re looking from game defiition standpoint. Sure, viewed black and wit there is some set of rules and play involved. The same which apply to motorsport, which in its own right, is a sort of game. But that doesn’t directly translate to a VIDEOGAME. I hate to say it, but the Gran Turismo’s of this world, in my book, they check all the marks.

      However. One has to ask. Do gamers who are turned away by sims, know what they are looking at? You’re not buying a cat and dislike the critter for not being or acting like a dog.

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      1. Sim racing games aren’t adventure games. They could be, yes, but sim racing games are “games” for you to practice cars and tracks. It has the competition aspect (because we are simulating real life racing where competition is the base of all) that normal video games don’t have. So you don’t really need any type of adventure, you just need the result of everything that lead to it, which is racing vs opponents.

        However, sims can also be used as recreational games where you only care about the good feelings of driving or even casually race. And here making that type of adventure game around it can be interesting. It depends if you want to make the sim a character game (role playing) or make the sim a game tool that gives immediate access to play and practice all cars and tracks and they remain static. Meaning that after you exit the session and reenter, everything is reset. No cumulative damage, no money system, no addons, no role playing, no podiums, no social life, no real life inspired career of a racer.

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        1. “Sim racing games aren’t adventure games.”

          Of course they fucking aren’t, they’re sports games. There’s all kinds of simulation elements you can add outside of driving a car that make it more of a game.

          Like

    2. No replayability? People can race the same cars and tracks every day. Replayability. Is the same with counter strike, lol, dota2, and other games. The same characters on the same maps every day. Replayability.

      There’s a saying in counter strike, “you don’t play maps, you practice them”. You play them time and time again to come up with better team strategies and at the same time improve your skills.
      Is the same for sim racing games. You usually race the same cars on the same tracks time and time again to get better at it.

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      1. I get what you, but that’s already looking at things from a serious ‘simracing’ perspective.

        For example, in some videogames, you could replay the game making different choices or moral decisions. This influenced the outcome and would quite influence how the game would progress. Fable comes to mind where you could kill off your own sister just to get your hands on a sword. These kinds of choices were not possible to revert later on.

        In simracing, there’s more of this sandbox type thing like in GTA, surely you can keep doing the same thing for ages. However, that is not the same thing as replayabilty if you ask me 🙂

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  21. “people who’d like to do more than just aimlessly play in an empty sandbox, rather than be handed a slightly different shovel every two months.”

    this^^

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  22. Here’s a thought..

    What if a racing team who builds their own driver-in-the-loop sim software, and uploads that somewhere for the simracecommunity to use. However, the sim community would not know the source.

    Would they perceive it as a videogame, just because they don’t know the source? Or is the opinion “I can use it on my home computer, so it MUST be a videogame!”.

    Hmmmmmmm 😉

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    1. a sim software tool would be presented much differently than a sim software game. I bet many wouldn’t even know how to start it.

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          1. The software I’m working with also allows for the use of ‘internal physics’ (so what we normally would have in our sims). This means, no dynamic realtime modelling like with Matlab/Simulink type of realtime car models. The latter is what is used in the industry by automotive and motorsport companies for validated models of their cars and usually runs on a completely separate PC (hence external’). This is talking rF pro type stuff, but there is more software than that which is used, sometimes even completely custom.

            However, in a lot of cases, the internal physics drive great already, and all the realtime modelling isn’t so much noticable to the average simracer.

            Something funny I have noted out of experience. The internal physics, or sometimes even the external physics, are in some cases closer than our sims at home than what engineers/marketing department likes to admit. This applies to both sides of the story. Simracers like to make up excuses, ah this is just a game, rF Pro is 10 times better in everything it does and I will drive that much better and serious than rF2.

            Some bombshell, I think most simracers will be underwhelmed when the vanity wears off from driving an actual professional simulator. All the stuff we enjoy, flatspots, tire wear, damage, multiplayer, it’s not there. It is not neccesary. However, even that stuff can be, especially multiplayer, used as a training tool, and I’ve heard examples of it being used at some teams to train drivers dealing with traffic.

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  23. I kind of agree to this. I can easily that Test Drive Unlimited 2 is the my most favourite racing game.

    While I do appreciate all those development of physics and realistic car specifications on sim racing games, but it’s not something that I can enjoy for hours and hours. There simply is no sense of achievement in sim racings.

    Look, someone mentioned Counter Strike. Bringing up CS into this discussion is actually pretty good. CS consists of a simple menu/lobby and the game itself. What makes CS more fun than a sim racing? The Online lobby actually lets you fight with other people.

    While sim racings do have that, but there’s no matchmaking system, there’s only dedicated servers provided by the hardcores which usually isn’t fun. Not fun at all. Everyone is very serious, everything is very strict, you can’t have a casual race with anyone in the world. I myself have not raced in any of these sim racings because… there’s no one for me to race with. Although there are servers but they’re almost always exclusively for leagues and not fun for me to practice and familiarise with actual race.

    A lot of them imposes strict rules that makes it impossible for casuals to even play the game.

    Maybe if developers take their time to make the game have something you can grind for, it could be fun. Again, CS have ladders, rankings or division system where everyone will have to always constantly fight others in order to improve their rankings and get into a better division. It’s not like racing doesn’t have this system in real life, right?

    I’m not a good driver, not at all but if I can just have fun and race with everyone else that’s currently playing the game without actually getting tied to a league or a specific sekrit klub forum and being imposed very strict rules like it’s a real championship series when I don’t want to, it could’ve been a much better experience.

    And now, before someone say, “it’s a simulator, not a game,” go and see how a truck driving simulator/game can be so popular and so enjoyable even though it only have one mode of gameplay.

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    1. I think it would as well, could become the center mode of the game. But in this case devs would have to offer the servers where the structured and scheduled online mode is run on for the players. Contrary to games like csgo and dota2 which have matchmaking, they run a server per match. But for example SRS is splitting the same server and allow 4 races of ~80 players at the same time. I don’t really know if that or is exactly the case, but is something that could be researched by the devs.
      For example lets say you have a concurrent user base playing in this ‘structured online mode’ of 2500 players, and you allow 80 players split in 4 races per server, you will need 32 (2500/80) servers for all of them. Or say you put a limit of concurrent ~1000 players with 80 players split in 4 races per server, you’d need ~13 servers running at the same time. I think this can be affordable, but the more complicated part is building such thing and then having someone knowledgeable in the team that can maintain it, at least the software part, in case you have another company running the servers.

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  24. Yeah, I can understand the broad statement here.

    Problem is, your asking for features to be built on top of often broken dependencies. What good are these achievements and sense of progress without competent AI? PCARS SP ‘experience’ has limited to zero value due to the lack of competence from AI.

    To this point, Reiza claims their AI is the best yet after one of the recent updates. A critically important feature for the majority of these added gameplay elements to even exist.

    Haven’t heard any real discussion about the AI, instead everyone has been focused on the ECU update. Initially, I was also fairly underwhelmed and it seemed like a fix that no one asked for, but then I recalled the oddly notchy way throttle inputs are mapped to the engine. It actually was a fairly significant limitation to input precision and probably wasn’t a huge amount of work to improve upon.

    Anyways, my point is that the big picture of entertainment value isn’t producing titles with decent racing experiences under modern development standards. You either get physics sandboxes or games. Expectations have risen beyond ability and hyperbolic marketing is the new standard.

    I see much lauding of dirt:rally in these comments. Not sure what you guys think is going on but tarmac surface physics aren’t really even enjoyable still.

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    1. Dirt Rally certainly has many unresolved issues, and don’t expect those to get addressed, but I think the point is that the presentation of the game is what people are praising.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. I think AI is on its way to becoming better. Reiza’s is much improved. I think rF2 still has the most well behaved of the lot. AC’s real physics idea is the right direction to go long term too I think.

      Still good ai takes a lot of work. Doing stuff like an EEC seems like low hanging fruit and what else is a guy like Niels going to be doing? I don’t think he’s an ai guy. In the end a lot of what stops these things from developing is whether they can sustain the extra manpower in the budget, and generally speaking you don’t hear people bitch most about a lack of good ai, they first and foremost bitch about graphics which is obnoxious but half of what it takes to sell a game is the first lazy and shallow impression.

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  25. I agree, basic effing features should be in a race sim, period. I cannot believe a race sim can be developed and sold without a pace/safety car or even basic race rules. It’s ridiculous, there are race sims 20 years old that have those features.

    Realistic damage is cool and I’d like to see more developed on this but the effect is completely lost if cars tumble like, well tumble weeds in a crash.

    An in game livery editor is nice for reference. I still prefer to have the ability to edit a vehicle image outside and import the graphics because most in game editors are limited. As long as it’s easy to edit and import, that is all that matters.

    I don’t care about the grind to unlock additional cars and content. I’m the guy who finds the cheat code for a bazillion credits and buys the cars I want to play with. I don’t have the time for that.

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    1. Believe it or not, not all sims must simulate exactly the same way official races happen in real life.

      That will only happen if the competition gets tougher. For example if sims can only be successful by having dynamic time and weather, safety car and other regulations, live rubber on track, etc. then everyone will want to aspire their game to have the same things + something different or better than the others. But if the majority doesn’t pay attention or doesn’t mind not having those things, then those things aren’t a standard or even basic to have. Remember that the player market dictates what should be standard in sim racing. So if only a tiny group cares about rain racing, then rain doesn’t have to be a standard in all sims and you can have a successful game without.

      Now let me give you a more concrete example. We have Assetto Corsa that doesn’t have several of the so called standard or basic things. Yet it does the rest very good and manages to be more successful and more played than other sims that have the standard set of features.

      With that in mind, now comes the time they are thinking about a new Assetto Corsa. They will have to do something more and something better than the previous game. Which means if they want to attract the same customers and even more people from other sims, then the game plan and the game design will have to work for it, otherwise it can fall short compared to the previous game.

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  26. That’s funny, how did a screenshot of of my unreleased WIP skin for the Supertruck get into this article?

    Now on the article and Box’s words, I’m more inclined to be easy on AMS since they’re basically closing the book on it, and making small simulation updates is perfectly sensible, especially when thier indiegogo didn’t promise anything other than what we’re getting.

    If Reiza17 however doesn’t add anything that improves the so called “game value” then I will agree with the criticism. Of course I’m not privy to what that game is. Maybe somthing in the beta forums that Orr can see makes him more cynical. We shall see, but lts remember that Reiza 17 was originally billed as the Senna game so I think that sounds a lot more game-ish than a sandbox and if we believe them that they’ve retained the Senna goals to go with their broader goals maybe we might be in luck.

    But as much as I like Reiza I’m not going to give praise for my speculations. They’ve only earned my respect for what they’ve done so far and its not broken the rut that we’ve been talking about here. I still think they have the most potential for breaking it though. Kunos has already written off any hopes for AC explicitly and I’ve never been much of a fan of RaceRoom despite the sounds and the ful package series DLC.

    Only time will tell. Maybe Reiza will hear this. They have been afterall quite plugged into their community more than most sim developers.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I’m not sure if Reiza17 have its own secret forum, I think it does as Renato always mentioned about not breaking the news outside other than to their backers.

      AMS beta forums have nothing though but AMS updates and discussions. And I do have to agree that AMS is almost closing in to the development roadmap. Some of the v1.0 milestones and post-v1.0 milestones have been reached and already available in the game.

      Still, we’re just going to have to wait and see what happens.

      Like

      1. As a backer with access to the AMS – Beta & Development forum I can tell you that you can’t see any info at all about Reiza 2017 there. It’s only about AMS which seems to be coming along nicely, but slowly.

        I think that’s what Matt wanted to say. He’s not concerned about anything specific being mentioned. He’s more concerned about no specifics at all being mentioned.

        As for the future, I will be happy if AMS can be wrapped up this year with all the promised features, but the next big project needs something more. That “game value” Matt is talking about is indeed scarce in most sims. I think every sim should either have a thought-out online system (like iRacing) or a good career mode (like GTR2).

        These have been missing in sims lately, but there are projects on the horizon that give a little bit of hope, too. Reiza have been developing the Virtual Xperience platform that, as of right now, aloows hotlap leaderboards in AMS, but is suppose to structure online races and advertise for leagues in the future. I really hope they can complete that for AMS soon and expand on it with Reiza17. And then there’s F1 2016 coming up with promises from CM that career mode will be polished and feature complete this time.

        We’ll just have ton wait and see whether these promises can be kept, but the feature is not so dark as Matt and Austin paint it.

        Liked by 1 person

  27. In terms of pure track racing (rather than open-world, which is the real area for good singleplayer modes, for whatever reason) the last game I remember really spending some quality time on the career mode is NFS 5: Porsche Unleashed.

    People talk about RACE07 or GTR2 but… if I’m honest, I didn’t use the career mode. I played some custom championships, or I screwed around in single races.

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    1. I loved Porsche Unleashed. Its my favourite non-sim car game from yesteryear. I used to wade through the used car section to try and collect every car in every make in the game as the years wore on.

      It was a game inside a game.

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  28. Stop being picky bitches go out and play, or at least masturbate. Loved GTR2 but never gave a damn about that driving school crap, its all about the multiplayer fun guys, fucking FUN picture it.
    Also Canadians, Australians, Americans, Irish, Scots, Welsh, the civilised nations have soemthing in common, SHITTY FOOD

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  29. The problem at the end of the day for me is , I keep buying products hoping for improvements in the genre
    $500 a year on games that do the same thing without fundamental changes and or improvements , not to mention upgrading wheels and other hardware products . Starts to get a little out of control in the $ department when you actually don’t get any improvement in the gameplay area.

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    1. Well part of the problem is that simming is very niche. Back in the 90s you could find full budget support for them. You used to find reviews and adverts for stuff like Falcon or a Jane’s game in PC Gamer and other mainstream publications. These days its surprising if DCS gets a mention.

      That means development rolls over slowly and most ambitions are pretty limited. Games like AC were a surprise with how successful they were and clearly Kunos never intended it to be this big howver limited it is. PCars is probably one you can be really critical of though. They had the budget, they had the support, but they produced another sandbox so that’s definitely worth criticizing, but then the people who supported it never much cared to push it in any direction either.

      Bit of blame to go all around I think.

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  30. Simulation value first and bullshitty single-player campaign with ugly trailers last. F1 2016 has some nice features missing in other titles, but what´s the point driving just one car? Custom Championships coming soon to AC and the animated pit-crew is working, even it´s a bit slow.

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  31. I’m wondering what you pokemon chasing kiddy game faggots are doing in simracing in the first place. To long a wait for the next GTA title?

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  32. rFactor 2 is for inferior American faggots.
    If you’re a true European, stick to the only true simulation out there, Assetto Corsa.
    rFactor 2 is dead anyway.
    It’s been outdated in every possible way, physics, graphics, sound, online, leagues and all.
    Fuckin American try their best with their viral marketing online to destroy their rivals, but they’re
    only destroying themselves, as usual.
    Americans can’t do anything good anyway.
    Just pure capitalist inferior shit. 🙂

    Like

  33. Been into “sim racing” for well under a year since I got a G27. And Automobilista happened to be my purchase and stepping stone that truly got me into the genre. I have enjoyed myself immensely and am in awe of the technical stuff that I couldn’t begin to understand. But something always has been missing in my steep climb to “git gud”.

    I’ve also read this site for about the same length of time stumbling across it while learning all the extra nuances of sim racing (hardware/software setup, definitions of terms, etc etc). I never quite ‘got’ the complaints here but at the same time I kept it a weekly or monthly routine to come read the posts. Morbid curiosity? Spellbinding article titles? Self loathing? Who knows but I enjoy reading the site’s stuff. But this post finally all worded it in a relate-able way to me. I finally understand what really is missing from these experiences.

    I think as far as all these sims are concerned, Automobilista is actually indeed the most approachable for someone as new as me. Something like the FFB is plainly noticeable and is mind blowing compared to something like DiRT Rally. You “feel” the cars or whatever you want to call it. And everything worked with my wheel just ‘plugnplay’ like a F1 2013. I was able to just go in and start spinning out and hitting walls without having to Google for hours of suggested setups. But, there still wasn’t ingame incentive or ingame help learning to enjoy myself beyond sucking. I had to figure out myself that I’m more inclined to enjoy a Kart with no shifting or that I can keep a F3 on the track better than a Supertruck. It takes me multiple ‘single races’ on a track with a vehicle to figure out what AI difficulty percentage (low percentage in my case!) I need to have a fun race. And never mind the championships beyond me finishing a few with Karts. Though I will enjoy that feature more when I don’t have to edit text files to set up a custom one. Not everybody can load up a game and figure out tire pressure and beat a delta, and I don’t have the ego to say otherwise. I’m new, I suck, and when I’m not new I will still be average at best. But the genre should still be for me.

    And I’m not asking for hand holding or less simulation. I am that guy who only plays singleplayer and does want a career or whatever. And that is most definitely lacking from this game I immensely enjoy otherwise. They’ve done lots to make it more accessible to the new idiot like me without even trying. They flat out accidentally made the most approachable sim in my opinion. Like I said, everything just works. Meanwhile I couldn’t get something like a rFactor or RACE07 to do anything if you paid me. And being the lonely singleplayer, iRacing (and it’s pricing system) offer me zilch. But I agree, there isn’t enough game to go with the accessibility now that you, or the other dude you quote, put it into words for me. I’ve only learned to race better from watching thirty year old racing school videos on YouTube of guys driving in donuts instead of having the donuts and lessons in the game for me. I learned about apexes reading websites instead of watching/playing an ingame tutorial. And never mind anything about what all these numbers in the garage mean or the nuances of a FOV calculator in relation to my single small screen or how I might enjoy camera settings that allow my to slightly look into a corner. Then I still play F1 2013 for a championship season instead of trying something new to me like V8’s or Boxers in a championship because it just works better in the F1 game. All the while Automobilista is still my go to and favorite game to play with my wheel that just feels fun and right. But it is just laps. Heck I play Automobilista to “warm up” for sessions in the easier Codemasters games and have better times in them because of it. I’d rather warmup in Automobilista for Automobilista though. It really is an odd situation. But I think this post and the dude posts explains what I couldn’t put my finger on pretty darn well.

    End of the day I enjoy the product I paid for and think it is more than worth the price. I recommend it to people whenever I can. It alone could’ve justified me spending money on a wheel to drive ‘pretend race cars’ instead of spending the money on something constructive, like beer. I’ll be playing it for the foreseeable future. The foreseeable long future. I really do like it. And I’m looking forward to all the continued ‘simulation’ content, even the stuff I don’t understand, coming out nearly weekly on the beta branch. But more ‘game’ content would indeed be damn neat.

    Like

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