Each Modern Racing Sim is Broken in the exact same way… Does anyone even care?

Earlier today, I ran an article showing an embarrassing AI glitch in Assetto Corsa. I’ve since chosen to remove it.

Why?

Because somebody in the comments section, whether it was intentional or not, put me in my place and exposed a much bigger problem in Sim Racing.

Go AwayFor those who hadn’t gotten the chance to read the article before it was shitcanned, the post essentially displayed a really goofy video of some dude running a race against the AI at Bathurst in Assetto Corsa. In Turn 15, the AI made a beeline for the outside wall, and most of the field retired without even completing a single lap. A PRC.net reader complained that the post seemed malicious towards Assetto Corsa, and pointed out a similar issue at the exact same track in rFactor 2.

Untitled-2But then I realized, between Assetto Corsa, Project CARS, F1 2015, RaceRoom Racing Experience, and now rFactor 2, that’s a fair bit of modern racing sims all with the exact same problem:

Five completely different developer teams, all with completely different approaches to developing what’s essentially the exact same game, and all five result in the identical nagging issues that sometimes make each game unplayable. Considering a ton of people who are huge racing game fans own all five titles, and the inevitable fanboy wars that result from dickwaving over my favorite game is better than your favorite game, the sad reality is that everything is equally shit and some people paid $250 to figure that out the hard way.

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111 thoughts on “Each Modern Racing Sim is Broken in the exact same way… Does anyone even care?

    1. rFactor 2 AI doesn’t belong in that list. The guy must have used the wrong aggression settings.

      See here a full 50 minute multi-class race on Bathurst without any problems.

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      1. The guy uses 35% aggression and not the recommended default 25%.
        It also doesn’t help that he uses a car with known AI issues on bumps, which will be fixed in a coming update.

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      2. Is funny, because you never posted good AI races from AC after you spammed the internet with AC’s AI problems, with videos made by hexagramme. There were also good examples from insidesimracing and emptybox with v1.2 AI doing a full race without buggy problems.
        At that time, anything was good to shit on AC. Now that people are finding issues with rf2’s AI, you start posting full races where AI is behaving.

        This where we see how partial and biased ass and hex are.

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      3. HURR YOU CLEARLY HAD THE AI SETTINGS WRONG TROLL!

        This is the same thing you faggots tried to roast AC fanboys for saying just a few weeks ago. This blog lives off of drama from sim racings biggest virgins. Jamesociator included.

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      4. It should also be noted that unlike most others, rFactor 2 is primarily a modding platform and not sold as a finished product and doesn’t have paid DLC http://rfactor.net/web/rf2/rfactor2-purchase/

        “””rFactor 2 is an evolving product, and as such, we expect to be adding cars, tracks and features for many years to come. We encourage people to purchase rFactor2 based on its current features and content at the time of purchase. We offer a one-time 7-day refund if you are unhappy with the current product for any reason (see “risk free” section below for refund policy), and you should decide on whether rFactor 2 is right for you during this period.”””

        In addition to this it also has a free demo

        “””We recommend trying the demo before purchasing, so that you know if the product is right for you.”””

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  1. If only AI was the worst problem they have, I would be happy. I don’t ever touch single player as I have no interest racing silly bots. It’ll be a while until anyone manages to create an AI worthy to be raced that is able to simulate a skilled human (both speed and racecraft wise) with the same background simulation and physics. Anything less than that is wasting your time.

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  2. All the sim’s AI is equally shit? LOL hardly.

    Assetto Corsa still takes the cake for having the most atrocious AI seen in a racing game/sim in the last decade. Kunos deserves all the shit they can get for that hopeless AI code they’re fumbling around with. Think about it… Nearly a decade spent coding AI, and this is all they have to show for it.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. A decade spent coding AI? AI was introduced in the public game in the 1st quarter of 2014. If AI existed before in Kunos private software, then it must have been rudimentary and not actively developed. Simbin/Codemasters/ISI/SMS/Polyphony/Turn10 have been developing AI for more than a decade, like 15 years ago. And no is definitely not an easy task, because there are still complaints in all the games made by companies, even their current games.
      And yet you blame Kunos for finding it difficult to make good AI for so many cars and tracks, during one a half year, when the main programmer who also handles physics and other parts of the physics/graphic engine, is having a hard time to make a high quality AI. You are really unable to make a good analysis.

      And what about human drivers? How much have they improved in 2 decades of online racing? 1%.

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  3. Still a bit of a long bow throwing AI issues in RF2 and RRE with Pcars ac and f12015, RF2 and rre have very small “blemishes” regarding AI,and maybe get issue 1 in 10 races, AC and Pcars AI is out right terrible and hand on heart, I dont think Ive completed a full race in either title because of AI issues in other words AI in AC and pcars is close to outright broken, bit unfair throwing guys that at least have a working AI with broken shit me thinks.

    This isnt just a race sim issue, AI in general has taken a back seat in modern games, lot of todays young fellers now get their entire social life from games, this means SP has a lot lower priority, which devs love as AI is by far one of the most difficult things to code, which is a damn shame, cause ive got a social life outside PC, and when gaming Im happy to play by myself, on my terms and on my times, these arrogant twats that keep claiming AI is annoying and unessential,they may have all day to fuck around with other guys fucking around but I have kids, job and a life that doesnt cater well to constant MP,and getting locked in to 40 min races on without a week of planning ahead, especially when try gaming with fellers like me who has same time restraints etc,so AI is essential IMO for gaming.

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      1. Yeah totally man, because the small player base (Sim player base typically in same boat as me, jobs kids, missus) of these sims is totally gonna cater to my play times (even smaller down under unfortunately, not everyone can live in EU or US), also humans in pub games are just as likely to ruin race, infact from my experience your average public race human appears to be far worse then most AI ive met.

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    1. RRE AI is not very good ether – DTM which their flagship sim has atrocious AI. Oschersleben on 100% or more they or way too fast then at some points (eg.chicane) they slow down to a crawl. So much so you cannot drive against them in a race even if you try…. and I tried for a whole wasted day!

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  4. In GT6 there was a time during few seasonal events where AI cars would brake too late and overshot the corners:

    This may look milder than the examples above, and I actually liked this; I believe that AI should be allowed to make mistakes, because in real racing, not only one racer makes mistake(s).

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      1. I genuinely tried to find an AI issues video for Stock Car Extreme, and instead only found Let’s Play videos of people racing offline. If you find me a good one, I’ll toss it into the article.

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      2. That’s because the engine is so old it’s irrelevant in comparison to today’s “modern” sims. Everyone already knows about gMotor’s inherit flaws so it’s nothing new to report on.

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  5. Of course racing sim AI is terrible, they don’t have the funding to compete with guys like Google and DARPA challenges for the big money in smart drivers so they just code in whatever they think will work and if it makes it round the circuit once after being shown the exact route, they consider it complete. Tack on some ‘difficulty’ (artificial grip bonus) and ‘aggression’ (ignore other cars’ presence on the road) sliders, and you have a racing AI.

    The weird thing is, people are happier with completely fake AI physics that they can tweak to keep up with them (RF2) than completely real AI physics that has problems on some of the toughest corners in the real world circuits (AC)

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    1. The biggest problem is that AI wasn’t an issue on inferior hardware. GPL, NR2003, and GP4 all managed to put together a competent offline package with extremely intelligent AI that’s actually rewarding to race.

      Ten years later, we’re left with what you see above and told to “deal with it.”

      Liked by 1 person

      1. The thing though, is that the people who made the AI of the games you mentioned, aren’t around to share their knowledge. So the devs from the current sims had to learn all by themselves and experiment. And it gets more difficult when that developer has other priorities for the game and can’t spend so much time at once just for the AI.
        But mainly the problem is that AI knowledge wasn’t shared by the devs who had success in it.

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      2. GPL NR2003 sims and AI for that matter were built by Papyrus = iRacing and interstingly in a rececent iRacing survey there were questions about having AI in the sim… maybe they considering it.

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    2. Then AC need fake physics for its AI, having “real” physics in AI means fuck all if they cant drive for shit,and provide a interesting component racer, AC and PCars I can also play full difficulty without breaking a sweat, where as RRE,RF2 and GSCE Im no where near top difficulty.

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      1. Do you also break a sweat driving cars in a race track? Or after you’re at least minimally experienced at it. The thing is that people are trying to compare real life track driving/racing basing their opinions on a certain sim, and not basing their opinion on real life vs the sim they are reviewing. And then it also matters to drive the same or an equivalent car between sim and rl.

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      2. Playing against AI means fuck all if they don’t use real physics, there’s no sense of accomplishment from beating an AI who isn’t even driving the car, just shuffling around a car shaped brick at what the game thinks is a plausible course and ends up with a similar laptime to you.

        I’ve tried to replicate the AI issues in AC and can’t make most of them happen; maybe I’m just cursed with a working copy of the game.

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      3. With AC, if the AI takes a line that’s faster than mine, I know I can take the same line at the same speed. With RF on 120%, you can see the cars rubber banding out of corners in ways you can never replicate. It’s glorified hotlapping, if your laptime matches the arbitrary 120% target then you win.

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      4. I have time for AC, DESPITE the AI issues,because they didn’t use a ISI engine,but it can only go so far, you lot can claim AC AI is terrible because they use “real physics” or that Kunos have only had a year and a half on ai coding, its completely irrelevant to my and other gamers experience with the game AI, a fully released game that is.

        Also simulation is about a accurate end result,not process’s,example being AC has to fudge a lot of areas, but still get a accurate result, so when a AC fanboy, trys to use “AC AI use REAL physics” as some kind of excuse for bad AI, and accuse other sims of having to “fudge” AI,especially when that AI performs better and more realistic than AC’s, it sets my Irony warning off big time.

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      5. Can you show those areas where AC is fudging something about cars simulation? Or you’re just gonna shit on it because is the trendy thing to do?

        All sim racing games need to use made up data (which doesn’t mean is unrealistic, but is not as accurate as the real car), simply because there isn’t data available or the car manufacturer/teams didn’t share it. Especially data about aero and tyres. Many times there just isn’t tyre data or isn’t shared, and you gotta do it yourself.

        So don’t come here saying AC fudges things, when you don’t know the reality. Just ask any developer from the current sims, and you’ll see that you need to make up data and physics for the cars to behave as the real thing. Fudging stuff doesn’t mean is unrealistic, it just means is not 100% accurate to the real car, but the car handling, speeds, behavior is all mostly there. But since there isn’t data available or wasn’t shared, what are the devs supposed to do? Delete the car?

        Do you think any sim racing game simulates fully all the systems from ABS, TC, and Stability? Yea right… our computers wouldn’t be able to process all those things. So that’s why they need to make more simplistic models to achieve the same behavior but with less bytes and less cpu processing.

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      6. “Do you think any sim racing game simulates fully all the systems from ABS, TC, and Stability? Yea right… our computers wouldn’t be able to process all those things. So that’s why they need to make more simplistic models to achieve the same behavior but with less bytes and less cpu processing.”

        Lol,I must be terrible at getting a point across,as you’ve somehow replied to me with my point, thats what I was saying, see…..
        “””Also simulation is about a accurate end result,not process’s”””

        Ive seen you (and QUF, surely not same ppl eh) when presented with evidence of some kind of “fudging” in AC,spout on for pages that AC doesn’t need minute detail simulation (like rf2’s highly awesome tyre model,chassis flex, advanced aero etc etc) as as long you get a realistic end result,which I agree to a degree,but you then cant turn around and say oh AC AI uses real physics as some kind of excuse for the poor performance of AI, and then suggest the great performing AI of RF2 or GSCE is somehow flawed because AI don’t use same physics as player, therefore is fudged the irony is too much.

        Im not going to get into a fucking retarded 5 page BS spew about whats fudged in what game though, my comment was about the irony which I explained above and you side stepped, I havent got time as want to get a awesome AI race in with RF2, might even smash a hotlap on AC, before ruddy kids bed time, go the MIGHTY All Blacks.

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      7. @Hash, AC uses correct physics concepts about car dynamics. That’s not the point. Otherwise how would you get so similar car behavior among the various sims if they wouldn’t use the same or equivalent physics concepts? What changes is the data everyone has available to put into their games. And then also some details on the way you implement those physics/create algorithms/how many modules you simulate etc.
        Then the difference between games also relies on tyre model and suspension geometry.

        I think you never drove a race car or even a street car on a race track. I bet you wouldn’t say those atrocities.

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      8. And that doesnt even make sense to my reply ya muppet, your unreal QUF, you most be AC dev buddy or something, you,ve filled yet enougher page on net full of utter BS excuses AND THATS IT, paragraphs upon paragraph of blow arsing defending a product like its you kid, you’ve lost the plot mate, how the fuck did you get from my last reply about your BS irony into me driving real cars you fucking egg?

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      9. @Hash, I think you never drove a car in a race track and you aren’t either a technician/engineer/scientist in car simulation and software creation.

        So how can you make affirmations that AC uses fudged stuff and is unrealistic. And you’re just basing your opinion on your preference for another sim racing game, and not in real life. Besides, you didn’t do any tests, no data evidence or analysis. You just speak and attack other games because you like to hate everything that is the competition to your preferred game.
        But just one day, maybe you could prove the claims you make about certain games, with data analysis, telemetry and so on.

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      10. What eva man, why is burden of proof on me?I’m not claiming AC is a perfect simulation, Ive never said AC was unrealistic, my point was your terrible irony, all games have to fudge somewhere it is nature of sim, example oil temp in rf2 isn’t actually simulating oil running through motor and then cooler, it will be a set of algorithms, if car revs so much for so long oil gets this hot, GET IT, now with that in mind do think AC has some “fudging” in it? or do you think they have every molecule of wind resistance for example, your clearly running around in circles cause I pulled you up on your BS about AI, and since that comment you have tried to to pull the subject away, I hope you get paid for this shit, cause its borderline fucking nuts man, you sound like a demented DEV incognito.

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      11. I’m not talking about oil temps, or water, etc. But just the fact that you consider AC fudges things and you ignore that other sims also fudge is mind boggling. I never mentioned that “fudging” is unrealistic. I only said that is necessary. Because car manufacturers or teams don’t share everything, or the data isn’t available, wasn’t tested on the real car, and so on.
        So what are the devs supposed to do? They will do their best guess. They will simulate the car in a way to behave like the real one, even if they don’t have 100% of the data. Especially for tyres, why do you think all devs need to create their own tyre model?

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      1. Not since v1.2. You can push them offroad and they’ll lose control/slide. Or even slide on their own when they overshoot it. For example alfa romeo gta at monza’66 they will slide to the grass in some bends.

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      1. Eh, fighting games can push the difficulty of AI by making them more and more capable of timing attacks – things like countering in a 1/30 second window of opportunity, it’s not something the humans can’t do but very few ever will get as consistent as an AI. In driving games you have a much larger stage for the AI to navigate, it makes decisions that last longer (eg. pull back throttle cause it thinks it’ll collide, loses out over the entire straight) and the right move’s less obvious. If precise driving (eg. stay exactly 1m from another car) was important, an AI could certainly do that better than a human. As a matter of fact, AIs can keep their car very stable – if they want it pointed forward, no usual PIT manouevre is going to spin them out (hence people complaining AI are like tanks – no, they’re just good at holding their line and bad at knowing when to ask race HQ to black flag the guy who keeps bumping them). But the decisions are more squishy than that, it’s “should I avoid a danger of collision with that guy” iterated over time, figuring out when a ‘no’ is an ok answer. Eg. very close drafting, you put your car in a position where you can’t react quick enough if they brake checked you.

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  6. Yup. Personally. I like pcars AI. They can be too aggressive when your slower than them, but they can be raced with if your clean and respectful with little contact.
    This was most level headed article here yet.
    How bout an article on forza 6. That’s been ignored. But from what I remember and the love shown for it.
    Forza is probably the most complete, unbroken game out there with an online component worth playing.i remember them being the most complete last gen on 360 with forza 5. Nobody’s really has much to complain about it. Actually considering an Xbox one for it.
    Is it the only good/complete racer we have? Sim or not?

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    1. I think all the sims need to thank microsoft for not bringing forza6 to pc. Otherwise our sim racing games would be even more niche than they currently are.

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      1. Honestly, if they put like, a Forza 4 “Directors Cut” on the PC with all the bullshit post release DLC/expansions/preorder stuff bundled into the base game, I’d play the shit out of it. Can’t really argue with 500+ cars and a rudimentary upgrades system that allows for any kind of racing under the sun.

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      2. Cant see why that would dilute the sim racer base, if you gave up good PC race sim for forza, then you was probably not interested in the more detailed aspect of racing anyway, like saying if killzone or HALO was released on PC, ARMA players would thin out, because halo and killzone have shooting so why play arma, right?

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    2. @Hash, the current sims have grown so much in the last years because they didn’t get serious competition on pc from games like forza and gt. Just the fact that these games aren’t on PC, made many users, even those who weren’t into sim racing games, consider them and give them a try.

      Many people found out about sim racing games because there weren’t better alternatives in the PC.
      By better I mean in the game aspect. And by game aspect forza and gt can beat all current sims.

      For sure sim racers have fun just driving and racing, they don’t need fancy modes and careers. But possibly these sims would be even more niche (less population) than now, because a good part of the audience of the currents pc sims was brought to these games because forza and gt aren’t on PC.
      So many pc gamers turned out for grid autosport, pcars, assetto, and then iracing, rf2, raceroom, gsce. And that’s how this crowd found driving/racing simulators, because the sharks of racing games are exclusive to consoles.

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    3. Whenever I see someone praising PCars AI I wonder if they’re playing the same game I am, or have the difficulty (which apparently also affects aggression) turned all the way down. In my copy of the game, at 100% AI, the other cars consistently drive off the track and usually into trackside objects everytime I’m near them.

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      1. Default AI values in pcars should be the one to keep. Maybe you can increase difficulty if they’re easy to win for you, but aggression setting is important to put it at a safe setting, in any game that has it. So instead of aggr. use the general setting for AI difficulty, or whatever is called, but should be intuitive to know which is the one, and that is a different setting from aggr.

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        1. The problem is that, unless it’s been patched in since last time I played, you can’t set the aggression independently of the difficulty. And even at 100% the AI in PCars tend to be pretty slow, and I’m talking in quick races and not career mode where the “real” AI setting is actually lower than what you have it set at until you get to the top tier.

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  7. It’s amazing that a decade old sim – GTR2 – still has the best offline racing components and no one has evolved beyond the benchmark set all those years ago. In fact they have all gone backwards!
    Maybe it’s time for a clever modding crew to get GTR2 and hack it into GTR3 – if possible of course…

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    1. Didn’t who created GTR2 is now part of sector3 and pcars? Doesn’t pcars and raceroom have mostly all features and ai from gtr2?

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    2. My only exposure to GTR2 is EmptyBox posting a video about how he’s going to do a season on it, then cancelling it later because he couldn’t get the AI to work with his mods. So excuse me for considering these “10 year old sim has great AI” to be some hella rosy tinted glasses. For one thing, how much have you improved as a driver in 10 years? I’m guessing it’s more than ‘not at all’.

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  8. Not ALL modern sims have this problem. Have you ever seen any signs of faulty AI lines, AI pileups or overaggression in iRacing? No. Nope. Nada. None whatsoever at all. That’s the only modern (well, relatively) sim that does not have any Artificial Intelligence issues. And you do not want to admit that because you hold a private vendetta against iRacing. Hahaha!. Handluj with that!

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  9. Alot of people here just need to take some MDMA and chill the fuck out. All this childish screaming over whatever sim has the best aero physics and what not is becoming quite pathetic at this point, it`s like PS$ vs XBOX or COD vs BF. Do you people even like racing and simracing? Or are you just here to type angry rage comments? The point 99% of the people suck in online simracing is because they`re probably too busy fighting over “my sim is better then your sim” on forums of actually DRIVING these games.

    I`m sure most of these issues which make you guys lay awake at night will get sorted over time, till then…chill the fuck out.

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      1. Lol clearly you’ve watched too many horror public drug announcements, MDMA is a fantastic drug, you use to be able to prescribe to horrible wifes, a possible cure for parkinson’s, has little to no side effects (when compared to any legal drug, and you fuck like a sex god, no really try it, if you try any decent drugs in your life, be sure its MDMA,pure ecstasy.

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      2. Oh boy, here we go…

        I’m sorry if you aren’t aware of your emotional instability after you come down, because it’s there even if you decide to ignore it. One girl was saying how a mutual friend turned into an ‘overly-emotional girl’ after taking pure MDMA for years… and she was exactly right, we both watched it happen and noticed how ‘fragile’ he was within 6 months, let alone years later.

        And yes, it is a stimulant. No chill involved, so you can cut that noise out completely. Momentary ‘calmness’ through euphoria is not the same thing as chill.

        Yes, it’s safer than many ‘legal’ drugs, but I’m explaining how things work when you keep increasing dosage to deal with the increasingly less interesting primary effects and take it frequently for an extended period of time.

        Side effects are obvious then.

        Liked by 1 person

      3. Anything abused will fuck you e123,Ive almost killed myself with paracetamol (accidental) alcohol abuse over same period would be worse IMO, everything in moderation.

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      4. “alcohol abuse over same period would be worse IMO” yes I definitely agree.

        The people I know who really went crazy on MDMA didn’t all handle it the same way and very few of them kept pushing it until some underlying potential side effects became obvious.

        I technically agree with what you said about everything in moderation, though even now I can’t personally claim to follow that rule exactly. Your username is a clue as to why 😉

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  10. From reading the comments here one thing becomes obvious to me.

    WE, SIMRACERS are part of the problem. I see people making constant excuses for developers (oh, he has physics and graphics to do as well so he can’t really program good AI; oh, he has a sick child and bitchy girlfriend; oh, he’s got AIDS hence the AI will not get better any time soon).

    FUCK THAT!!! We are supposed to be customers paying our hard earned money for a product and we’ve got the right to demand better products for fuck sake. Since when have we become fucking dev support groups?! It’s not our problem to program AI, I don’t get paid for it and what I get paid for I do just fucking right so nobody can complain. The devs are NOT your friends! Get over it! We aren’t supposed to defend their mediocre skills at programming, we’re supposed to criticise openly what is wrong with the product and the devs should treat us with respect cause after all they get their bread bought just because we paid for their products in faith that those stand up to modern standards (and by that I mean those released today should be miles better than those from 10 yers ago).

    I really get sick when I see all you fucking retards getting on your knee’s in front of some devs like they where some fucking stars. It’s pathetic! Have some self respect people. Don’t be affraid speaking up about issues that shouldn’t be there beyond beta fase.

    For the record, I play mostly online in iRacing (there’s plenty wrong with it obviously, but so far no one has the balls to throw the gauntlet and make similar servicnone challenge them,until then it’ll be a status quo), offline in AC and GSCE and none of those get the AI right. AC is not even worth mentioning (if someone defends it it only says a lot about their intelligence) the GSCE is ok but why oh why do i have to go through all the hassles of setting the right agression vs strenght thing? It didn’t mention it on the box. Why can’t it just adjust itself to players capabilities? it’s 2015 for crying out loud!

    Anyways although I am not always fond of what’s being written here I salute James and Chris for what they’re doing here. It’s in our best interest to stay critical of the abuses being made by devs on us. Cheers

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    1. How about you analyze stuff for yourself and realize that the sim developers who are struggling with AI these days, aren’t the ones that made successful AI back in the old days. So that knowledge wasn’t shared. These new sim devs had to start on their own and experiment. And takes a longer time if they are also busy working on other aspects of the game.

      Yea bla bla all excuses, but we are all humans here. Why aren’t you an engineer working for NASA or making the next skyscraper in Dubai? After all, we all have access to the same schools and money. I think at your age you should already be an highly important member of the society. What a disappointment you are, no excuse for you. You have failed at life. Why other human beings are so successful at the same age as you and you aren’t? Shame on you, what a disappointment, no excuses.

      After all your parents spent money for you to be highly successful and wished it, why aren’t you one? What a disappointment, no excuses. You should refund your parents. No excuses. You have failed and your parents have all the rights to demand you to be president. You have failed. No excuses 😉 It’s 2015 for crying out loud, why aren’t you more successful? Bill Gates was more successful in in 1987 and we are in 2015, yet you are so poor compared to how rich Bill Gates was in 1987. No excuses for you, we are in 2015 for crying out loud.

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      1. I-DON’T-GIVE-A-FUCK!!!

        I’m not calling myself a developer and don’t get paid for it; I don’t work for NASA and don’t get paid for it either. You getting my drift?

        If someone who calls himself a game developer isn’t up to sniff to actually make a good game (in a broad sense) maybe he’d be better of staying in it’s cave and practising some programming skills until he’s ready to do so? Releasing a broken game and calling it complete, ver.1.0 or whatever is just plain wrong and we should openly speak about it and not be silenced by the makers or any other fanboy fools. Would you like to pay for a car that only drives in reverse “cause going forward will be added in an update in NEAR FUTURE”? I guess you wouldn’t

        Now, what I do for my work is up to me and doesn’t have to be anything special, but I’m competent at it to the point that nobody complains. It’s got nothing to do with being “human”. It’s bussines. Do you think a dev banning you from forums for some valid comments is any more humanistic in it’s practises???

        All your parents argument is just silly and I won’t even bother to answer it.

        And to be perfectly clear by saying WE ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM I meant more YOU than ME.

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      2. But what is actually broken? We can race against AI fine, just because they may bump you or in some situations cause you to spin when you cross their line and don’t have time to react, is more complicated.
        How is the game broken? You can access online, you can create a server, you can set up a race against ai and actually complete races against them. You have a career mode you can access. You have several tracks and many cars that all work.

        In what world is this broken? Don’t just say broken if you consider a game has a lower quality. For me it doesn’t have low quality, but again is just my preference/opinion vs your preference/opinion.

        But the game isn’t broken, the AI isn’t broken, the MP isn’t broken. They all work and you can complete races, and even win if you’re good at racing.

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      3. >We can race against the AI just fine
        >in almost every sim, at a certain track they just shit out their brains and block the whole track
        IT’S WORKING AS INTENDED GUYS!1111 YOU ARE USING WRONG SETTINGS!!111

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      4. Maybe when you create your game.. we will have perfect AI in all situations. We will have perfect physics and ffb, perfect tracks, perfect graphics, perfect sounds. Perfect MP, netcode, collisions, perfect features. When you create your game, we will have perfection.

        The lack of compassion in sim racing elitists can only be rescued by James Cameron scuba diving. They want all perfect, and want to pay only 50€.

        I hope you get to refund every game you own. No game is worthy of your perfection standards. And this I’m talking not just about you Sev, but about the sheer amount of people that look down on others and how they create things. I think we should refund every game that doesn’t have a score of 100/100. How can we endure such monstrosities, WE DEMAND PERFECTION, and nothing but perfection.

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  11. “How about you analyze stuff for yourself and realize that the sim developers who are struggling with AI these days, aren’t the ones that made successful AI back in the old days. So that knowledge wasn’t shared. These new sim devs had to start on their own and experiment. And takes a longer time if they are also busy working on other aspects of the game.”

    And those early sim developers who didn’t struggle with AI back in the old days had been lucky enough to have been born with that intricate knowledge, right ? And they were not busy working on oter aspect of the game because ten or fifteen years ago it was customary for game developers to employ three million people on average, right?

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    1. Maybe proper AI racing is not an easy skill you acquire. And they were fortunate. But remember they only had one type of car, usually formula1 or nascar. And the fact that many racing game developers, not just Kunos, have been struggling with AI for so long, makes you think is not something easy or done in 2 years. We can race against AI fine in most cases, but maybe not at the quality of human racing.

      Just because someone in the 19th century made an x-ray machine, doesn’t mean everyone in 2015 has the ability for it.

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      1. But you’re ignoring the fact that not everyone claims to be able to make an x-ray machine. If I went out and started selling a prototype x-ray machine, and it worked 99% of the time, that’s great. We’ve got just a few little problems here and there. We can fix that, and then it’ll be ready for launch.

        If I released it, and said it worked, and it was ready for public consumption, but in 1% of cases it showed a gaping hole where there were actually bones?

        No doctor would use my x-ray machine.

        As this entire comment section demonstrates, if we replace “x-ray machine” with “racing sim AI” and “it showed a gaping hole” with “they were unable to avoid ramming into the wall seemingly without braking at the Dipper”…

        Then it’s fine.

        Every sim racer would say that if you don’t like it then you’re a whiny, picky baby.

        These aren’t beta projects any more. They’re not in early access, they’re not “incomplete.” Every single one of these games is being sold as finished products. There’s more to come, but it’s just going to be free DLC and minor patching.

        Except that everyone knows that’s not the case!

        NO FUCKING PITSTOPS in Assetto Corsa, never mind the issues with AI! Every single class of racing features pit-stops at the highest level. Open-wheel racing? Indycar has optional pit stops. Formula 1, compulsory tire change. GP2, compulsory pit stop in race 1. Endurance racing? Pit stops to change drivers, change tires. Grand Touring cars? DTM, not 1 but 2 compulsory pit stops. Stock Cars? NASCAR requires pit stops for refueling.

        In what world is that an acceptable thing to not-model? Maybe 10-lap races in your Spec Ford. Maybe Skippies. Maybe Touring Cars, they only do, what, 10-15 laps to a heat? That’s not what I thought we were supposed to be limited to.

        AI REPEATEDLY SLAM INTO THE OUTSIDE WALL OF THE DIPPER.

        But let’s be honest, other games have issues, too. I’m beating up on AC a little.

        rFactor 2? NOTABLE lack of vanilla OR modded content. The content that DOES exist, even counting only vanilla content, has WILDLY disproportional quality levels. Compare the DW12 or Renault 3.5 to, for example, the Marussia F1 car or the largely identical Formula Masters. It’s a joke!

        pCars has countless AI issues, not least of which being that they’re far too slow to keep up with competent drivers (among which, I can’t exactly count myself I’m sad to say) as seen in every single YouTube career mode series. Then you get the fact that when you pass them, some percentage of the time they just go straight-on into the corner as if to crash you out of the race out of spite, particularly in open-wheelers.

        Haven’t played RRE, because the pay model is so absurd that I’m not interested in having to buy my way into it.

        Game Stock Car is built completely on top of rFactor 1, and you can immediately tell. It doesn’t look exceptionally better, and converting content is as easy as can be, because the entire setup is essentially the same.

        iRacing has constant issues modeling the road, the tires, and that’s ignoring of course the occasional feature rollouts that give one driver a 2-second advantage over his competition.

        Gran Turismo doesn’t have real cars, it has mobile chicanes that move exactly along the racing line like robots, and if you manage to push them off the racing line, they’ll just get back on it and continue racing in a completely straight line (remind you of any other AI?)

        F1 2015 has its own set of problems; finally, at least from what I’ve been able to see, the AI are almost competent, as long as you ignore the countless problems they’ve been having in terms of things like both cars pitting in at the same time, cars getting stuck in the pit-lane, and so on. Then there’s the fact of the complete lack of content in F1 2015 compared to previous games and you can see why many F1 YouTubers are already going back to F1 2013 and 2014.

        Of course Forza’s only been out a couple of weeks now, but from what little I know being a PC racer with a little history playing Gran Turismo, it’s got the usual problems with any game being handled by Microsoft: stuck on a console that has only 2 wheels even available at this time, and as a result the standard of competition is that much lower; and it’s all about monetization, which is the standard for the DLC-box.

        I like racing games. I like every game on this list with the exception of RRE because, again, I haven’t touched it, but I have only heard peripheral comments about it being pretty good.

        But don’t sit here and tell me that it’s all fine, because it’s not all fine.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Don’t get fooled by the titles each game carries or doesn’t carry (beta, early access, complete, released). These are just technical terms, and is important for the company to move through stages.

        But the reality of things, especially in sim racing games, all of them are work in progress. They all are a long term project. And I think we already know this but we somehow expect a very finished and complete game. Well.. this is simulation software and is very complex. This is not just a simple software that lets you convert videos from format to format. This is not a chocolate bar where we say “Here it is, the complete and finished chocolate bar, enjoy!”

        Sim racing games are a work in progress. And quality usually gets higher and higher as it progresses.

        For sure 2015 devs could nowadays create a game exactly just like nascar 2003 or GP4. But would we in 2015 buy these games looking and feeling exactly as they were decades ago?
        If the sim racing community wants something better than the games from decades ago, then they should be prepared to endure with the devs as they make progress in the ongoing project. And nothing will guarantee at the end we will have the perfect game. At the end of the project, it will start another game project that will generally improve aspects of the previous project.

        If not, 2015 devs could very well complete a GP4/Nascar03 game in 1 year and call it a day. But do you want something better than games from decades ago? The task is much more complicated.
        And another important aspect is to realize that the devs have different desires and preferences than others.
        For example AC, the initial desire was only to have a simple driving/racing game, and with a low number of features and content. And then it evolved, and has continued to be an ongoing project.
        But no matter how much you demand a certain feature and you think is unthinkable to not exist in a specific game, you need to take in account that these devs didn’t want at that time to create those features. Their vision for the game was different than yours, and for sure their vision from back then could have changed, and the game is evolving into another vision.

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      3. Are you a paid shill for these companies? How else could you possibly sit there and claim that “alpha” “beta” and “gold” mean nothing? They’re not distinctions without a difference; they’re meaningful terms that are used by both development teams for internal discussion and by informed consumers to make purchasing decisions!

        First of all, “simulation” software should simulate. Any “simulator” that can turn out laps 3 seconds faster than the world record is not a simulator at all. Any “simulator” that can’t do the same lap time for a car when using real-world setups is not a simulator at all. Any “simulator” that doesn’t allow tire changes is not a simulator at all.

        But let’s be honest here. I don’t care about simulators. I’m a gamer. I like games. I’m not a simmer. I don’t care about simulation beyond pretending to be Felipe Nasr, because I really like the blue color of the 2015 Sauber. I had just as much fun playing Tokyo Xtreme Racer (an arcade racer with, ironically, the street-racing equivalent of pit stops) last night as I did driving the Skip Barber around Lime Rock Park in rFactor 2.

        Furthermore, you’re an idiot if you think that developing graphics is related in any way to feature completeness. Have you done any coding in your entire life? Because if so, you’d know that no developer in the world would code everything as part of one module. They’d be an imbecile. No, they’ve got a graphics engine, and a physics engine, an AI engine, and so on.

        Each one is a separate module in the code that may be tied to each other, but unless they’re using some very terrible coding standards they’re tied together by, to make a metaphor, USB connectors. You can change anything on either side of the wire, because the port and the plug are disconnected from the internal working components.

        So I’m a bit appalled that you would suggest that I’d have to settle for a game that “looks just like” NR2003, or GP4, or Grand Prix Legends. Granted, of course, that in spite of all the talk about how impossible GPL is to handle, it’s still one of the most natural sims to hotlap with the 1960s F1 cars IMO.

        Even with a team of 3 coders, you’d expect people to be specialized, and to each handle their own portion. A coder working on the physics engine wouldn’t be held back by a graphical problem. Look at iRacing and how their graphics don’t line exactly up with their underlying mathematical computations. Do you really think that the physics are being held back by graphics developments?

        As someone who previously studied to enter the programming field, and grew up surrounded by programmers, I find the very notion offensive.

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      4. Every time people ask about multi-class racing of AC’s AI, Kunos staff says “it’s not a feature we advertise, the AI’s not designed for it”. In your x-ray analogy, I guess that’s like saying “you could x-ray your hamster, but we offer no warranty on the results”. The machine can physically do it, but the results are untested. It might kill your hamster. It might not see any bones.

        Should the game just block out all situations they don’t support? Should rf2’s Bathurst be MP-only until they can fix the AI? Should their stock content limit AI aggression to 20-35% so people can’t crank aggression up? Should modding have to go through a central greenlight system to ensure that no mods are released without working AI?

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      5. @nathanmholden I never said games to look like nascar03 or gp4. I said that 2015 devs could create the same game in terms of features, graphics, physics, sounds, and they’d be done in a year with it. But do you want a replica of everything that composes those games? That’s the thing you didn’t understand. And in 2015 it could be a much simpler project to create a replica of those decade old games. But do you want a replica of those games or do you want a much better game in terms of sounds, physics, graphics, content? Then the project is gonna take longer. And you need to realize each dev team have their preferences and their path. For example Pcars path was to make pitstops and rain, night, etc. and AC’s project was to make a simpler game with the preferences of the devs. If the devs initially had the preference that they don’t want pitstops, rain, night, then what are you going to do? You can’t judge them, because they took a different path and it pitstops, rain, night wasn’t in that plan.

        For sure you can criticize them about AI, but you can’t blindly just do it. You gotta understand why is so difficult to make very functional AI? If those who did GTR2 haven’t succeeded yet in making a very functional and human like AI a decade later (pcars/raceroom, and to some extent, gran turismo and forza), why can’t you understand that a newer developer who just initiated their work with AI is having more problems.

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      6. Gran Turismo’s AI is garbage and always has been. To the best of my knowledge they’ve never improved it. I’m not even convinced they WANT to improve it. It’s the big boy on the block for PlayStation and they don’t need anything better. Rather, they want to have as many cars as possible. The lead designer for the game, Kazunori Yamauchi, has made comments to that effect several times. For them, that’s their goal. Am I banned from criticizing their game for its bad AI, excuse me while I quote here, “because they took a different path and it [raceable AI] wasn’t in that plan”?

        HELL NO! Of course I’m going to be critical! That’s insane. That’s stupid. I don’t understand why anyone would buy such a game in the modern era once they realize how broken it is.

        “[T]hose who did GTR2 haven’t succeeded yet in making a very functional and human like AI a decade later” aren’t the same guys. Development teams change. People change. They’ve still got the code, I’m sure, but they don’t have the same minds behind the design team. People are hired and move on from companies. New faces rise up the ranks, old faces move up out of coding teams and into design teams, or break off into their own company. It’s rare that you get guys like John Carmack who continue coding their entire career. Most people are promoted out of it.

        What that means is that almost every game, if releases are rarer than once a year, the coders working on it are looking at old code, but not code they wrote themselves.

        Ultimately, the reason that iRacing can’t do a game as good as GPL, the reason that RRE can’t do a game as good as GTR2, the reason that Pcars can’t do a game as good as, I dunno NFS Shift? Was that even good?

        It’s because SimBin’s new low-level code monkeys aren’t any better than iRacing’s code monkeys, aren’t any better than SMS’s code monkeys. The guys who are good enough to do it all by themselves the first time around are once in a generation. There’s a reason that John Carmack’s name carries any weight at all, and it’s because he’s essentially a genius and there aren’t many of those around.

        Rather, the reason that SimBin used to be able to do it, and can’t now, is because of a fundamental shift in the corporate culture surrounding coding that encourages quickly pushing out a broken product under the logic that you can ship it and make a bunch of money, and then maybe fix it later.

        Only, as anyone will tell you, that never happens. You end up just working around the shitty mishmash of code that you’d already pushed together because a complete refactoring of the code is an incredible expense that will introduce a whole slurry of new, unforseen problems that might be easier to fix but will damage your reputation.

        And all because they wanted to push a product out the door six months before it was ever ready.

        That’s why 10 years don’t mean shit, in spite of higher-level understanding of coding, in spite of more efficient coding standards, in spite of more optimized hardware.

        And people like you are the ones who allow this culture to continue, by defending these horrendous decisions.

        Like

      7. People like me allow it to continue? I was never involved in those games. I didn’t play racing games on that era. Only restarted later, 2014. Until then I just mostly played football games and first person shooters. And I still do, but now I also included racing games in my library.

        And how can people like me influence the state of current AI in games? It’s their problem they are trying to solve. But I understand is difficult and will take longer than what we want. The fact that I find AC’s current AI raceable and I recognize there have been improvements, it doesn’t stop Stefano from working more on AI and trying to improve it.

        The fact that I accept and play AC in its current state, doesn’t change the fact that devs wanted this in the first place. The fact that iracing is an online service with mostly American content and their prices are not cheap, doesn’t change the fact that its what they want to do, and there are people who like and identify themselves with that model.

        Again, doesn’t mean I don’t want or like pitstops, or rain, or night. But for me a game that doesn’t have them is not a bad game, and I can still use it a lot, mainly because the focus of the simulation is there. Car driving/racing. Pitstops are an extra if you want longer races.
        About AI, you can race fine and complete a race. You can even complete the career. Just because there are some occasional bugs with AI the game isn’t broken. And with time those bugs and irregularities will be dealt out. Which doesn’t mean new ones won’t be created.

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      8. You’re sitting here defending degradation in coding standards and quality standards in game development, and then you try to tell me that you have nothing to do with degrading standards? People who will defend a broken product. THAT’S the type of person that I’m talking about, and that’s what I’m criticizing.

        I used to play tennis religiously. I took it really seriously. Babolat racquets have a lot to recommend them. They’re powerful, spin machines, they’re light. You can hit the ball harder, with less effort. They’ve also got a reputation as racquets that destroy the elbows. You’re damn near guaranteed to develop achy elbows using a Babolat tennis racquet.

        But you can play the whole game with them! You can play a whole game of tennis! Who cares if they damage your elbows and after two years you’ll have an injury?

        Nobody on a tennis forum would tell me how stupid I was for claiming that the design is flawed because it leads to injury, simply because they can play a game of tennis with Babolat racquets, no problem. Because it doesn’t need to be a problem that rears its head every time, all it needs is to be repeatable and demonstrable.

        You’re defending the worst practices in the industry simply because your standards have been so hilariously lowered (interesting that you should bring up shooters and football games, which have had low standards since the PS2 era ended) by games developers that you think they’re your friends who need to be defended when someone calls them on their bullshit.

        Compare Timesplitters 2 to Call of Duty 4, the holy of holies for modern first person shooters. It’s more creative, more fun, more enjoyable, more interesting. Now compare Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3 to CoD4 and you’ll see again the trajectory that the FPS genre is on. Compare Battlefield 4 to Battlefield 3. Compare Battlefield 3 to Battlefield 2142 or even fucking Bad Company 2. Standards are falling away, and they’re not coming back.

        Why aren’t they coming back? Because useful idiots will sit there and argue that it’s fine, they did what they wanted to do and you shouldn’t expect anything better.

        Like

      9. I don’t think what you just said is the same as what you’ve been saying. That said, I do agree with that last post, by and large. I already said, in my very first post of this conversation, “I like every game on this list with the exception of RRE because, again, I haven’t touched it, but I have only heard peripheral comments about it being pretty good.”

        I find racing games really fun. Even down as far as Assetto Corsa, which I rarely play simply because I have so little time to devote to racing these days and what time I do have goes to other games, I have had tons of fun with in the time I have spent.

        But racing games and developers should be open to criticism, and when that criticism is valid, you shouldn’t defend them simply because half of a game is more fun than no game at all. Because a whole game is that much more fun than half of one. Or, you know what, that’s not fair. 9/10 of a game is still not as fun as 100% of a game. 95% is not as fun as 100%. 99% is not as fun as 100%.

        They’re all still fun. I can still have an absolute blast in old games if I want to, or I can have fun with new ones. I can hotlap for an hour, or I can play pCars career mode, or I can do a race in rFactor 2 that looks and feels great with AI that is competitive.

        But the problem is, over and over again in these comments sections, people are being told that because they have a career mode in pCars, a great hotlapping experience in Assetto Corsa, solid AI in rFactor 2, plenty of content in Game Stock Car…

        They shouldn’t point out that it would be so much more fun to put in those excellent hotlaps in AC for the practice and qualifying sessions, have the great race you expect from rFactor 2, have it count towards your championship total like in pCars, and have it all on a wide variety of tracks like GSC. All in one game.

        For many people, Assetto Corsa was supposed to be that game. It offered moddability, it offered a career mode, and of course in early testing it was immediately obvious how good the game felt to hotlap in. The modding community has done some great stuff, of course (and some not-so-great stuff). But the career mode we were promised turned out to be a terrible excuse for a career mode, and to the best of my knowledge doesn’t even compete with F1 2015’s extremely barebones career mode (compared to, say, F1 2011 or even F1 2013).

        It’s a lot to ask, but they’re not asking to do it for me for free. All I’m asking for is a full game when they’re asking for me to lay down full price.

        ps – I never got to try a Yonex. I always wanted to try one. They look so cool! But the local brick-and-mortar tennis shop didn’t get any until I was out of the game! I used Prince, switched to Babolat, to Volkl, and then went back to Prince unsatisfied. My Tour Diablo will always have a place in my heart. And also a place leaning against the bookshelf like 4 feet away.

        Like

    2. I think Kunos already got the message that several people want pitstops. Even I do, but they will do it when they can do it well. And for them that means when AI is good enough, then they can create pitstops for AI. However there have been pitstops in Online since game release last year.
      They got the message people want night and rain. But they said they can’t do it now.

      Pretty sure they knew before hand that not including pitstops, night, rain, very good AI, and other things, they knew people would talk about it/complain, since several racing fans are used to these features.

      But that doesn’t stop us from having fun and racing other people, including AI. Or doesn’t stop us from enjoying the cars and tracks they include.

      Sometimes you just want want and want, and you forget to enjoy what you’ve already got.

      ps. I used to have Yonex. Well because the club got sponsored by them, so I bought from the club. But they had other products as well, different brands of equipment.

      Like

  12. Cars are complicated and sophisticated machines as well. Yet you wouldn’t accept the fact that your new car doesn’t have windscreen wipers or the brakes don’t work because that’s not what the designers had originally in mind, would you? A car is a car and must have all the features associated with it. A racing sim is a racing sim and it is supposed to SIMULATE RACING WITH EVERYTHING THAT GOES WITH RACING, not hotlapping sessions alone on a perfect sunny day.

    The “ongoing project” is a perfect excuse for game developers that lets them get away with all the crap that they serve us. Don’t complain, it’s an ongoing project, we will add pit-stops in 2018, it is a very delicate and complicated issue.”

    The thing is, even if they do add a feature it will more likely than not be screwed up one way or another. iRacing has been an ongoing tyre project for 5 years and they still haven’t got it more or less right.

    You can ongoproject a sim that basically has all the required features: good physics, good netcode, good AI, changeable weather, night racing, working pit-stops. All this was included in SimBin’s GTR more than 10 years ago. Then and only then can you work on it further, hone the details, add new features, perfect the AI or the netcode. Not put all these features after you release ther sim on the market.

    The kind of thinking, that kind of leniency you’re presenting here is what got us in this mess in the frst place, sorry.

    Like

    1. Do you know what is car racing? Cars literally racing against each other somewhere. It can any type of terrain, it can be a straight away, it can be a close circuit. For closed circuit you only need a starting and a finish line, a lap counter/timer, and positions counter. The fact that you want pitstops, means it will be an extended race, to change tyres after they degraded from their optimal zone, meaning you’re losing speed and handling.

      But otherwise, car racing is actually a very simple game.

      Now if you want to simulate a motorsport series, then you’ve got a lot of extras to add. And that’s the thing, AC isn’t simulating a motorsport series. Having cars from that series doesn’t count. Raceroom experience, F1 2015, Iracing’s Nascar or Blancpain series, these are/will be simulations of the whole experience that takes to live that specific motorsport series. But actual car racing is a simple thing. And what you’re asking is just extras. Rain and night are extras. Pitstops are extras. Rules are extras (btw which rules of which motorsport series you want to simulate), tyre compounds are extra, rolling starts are extra. But jumping starts are an actual possibility inherent to the race driver, but then depends what rules you want to simulate for it. So is much simpler to not allow jump starts.

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      1. I agree. 5 years from now if everything else is fixed and every MP feature we want is implemented, then MAYBE it’s time to worry about jump starts.

        For now, it’s just a recipe for even worse MP races and would likely be disabled in the majority of servers.

        Like

      2. Obviously it’s much more simple to “not do stuff”- not do jump starts, not do pitstops, not do night. It’s all extra stuff, not needed by anybody. And at the same time let’s do developers sessions on YT! YEAH, instead of getting on with the job with head down implementing features (which are only extras, you now) let’s make friends with the folks so that they can defend our incompetence on the forums. Brilliant! Problem solved.

        I tell ya the youth of today amazes me to no end with how naive and prone to manipulation they are…

        Like

      3. You don’t realize he does youtube streams on his free time. And that free time occasionally coincides with working on the game. Or when you have your 2 days free per week, you also occupy your time with job stuff?
        And how in the world you can relate that doing youtube streams instead of doing jump starts are cause-effect relation?

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  13. Kunos approach is to provide the features most people actually use. Every one wants to race at night in the rain, but only once just to try it.

    If they don’t provide what people want then people won’t buy it. They have experience of this with NetKar Pro.

    AC has sold very well, far better than rF2 with its pitstops, rain and night racing, far better than GSCE with its pitstops and night racing, and a bit better than the PC version of pCARs with its pitstops, rain and night racing.

    Like

  14. I have a number of reasons to hate rfactor 2 but definitely AI is not one of those. It’s the only Sim since GP Microprose series where AI is playable.

    Like

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