Reader Submission #84 – What Accuracy?

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As I skimmed through this Reader Submission we here at PRC.net received late last night, I knew without a doubt that we’ll be in for a real shitstorm once the article goes live. Pulling no punches and liberally dishing out criticisms among the sim racing community, today’s lengthy entry comes from a well-known car physics editor who wishes to remain anonymous, discussing the state of authentic race car behavior within modern racing sims – and how information that could genuinely help the modding community is intentionally withheld in the quest of the almighty dollar. Grab some popcorn, it’s going to be a mess.


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Hey PRC.net staff! I finally got around to writing about the current state of car physics editing in modern racing simulators, and it’s not pretty.

I first want to start with a bit of a history lesson. A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, we were blessed with the launch of highly configurable isiMotor sims. Exciting times those were, when suddenly you could seek every physical characteristic of a land-based vehicle, and place those values directly into the simulator or game (yes, they are merely games, no matter how seriously you take them). We were able to try and simulate an entire car by it’s sheer technical numbers, rather than working with more or less conceptually simple models of how a car should behave.

The community went into a frenzy – but a good one. Pages and pages on the old RaceSimCentral forums (as well as other sites) were devoted to fully understanding the isiMotor engine, the variables it included, and how to apply real world data to them. Programs still used for modding were written during this golden age, such as the longstanding carFactory. It seemed like everyone in the community would benefit from this wave of development. But as is the tradition with sim racing, not everyone in the community was in it for the greater good. Those with ulterior motives began to pop up, and with time, they outnumbered the genuinely good people.

First up, let’s burst some bubbles.

In my eight years of being a car physics guru, and something like fifteen years spent participating in online sim racing communities, I’ve never found a single modder who was able to 100% replicate the exact behavior of a car and call their project 100% finished. It’s never happened, and it probably won’t happen for the foreseeable future, either. You only need to see how many tire model iterations titles like iRacing or Assetto Corsa have gone through. Even Niels Heusinkveld, the mastermind behind the physics included in titles produced by Reiza Studios, has created tires that behave in a completely different manner compared to what he put out for the community five years ago. Finished products don’t really exist.

And speaking of Niels…

Niels Heusinkveld is a famous name, and he’s a perfect example of how things changed from the early days of modern sim racing modding. Back then, he was an extremely active member on various message boards, and he was working on yet another tool to help modders, named “T-Rex”. This tool never saw a public release. Why? Because much like the controversial Slightly Mad Studios figurehead Ian Bell, Niels realized he could make a living out of sim racing, and kept it to himself. Now, I don’t have anything personal against the guy, it was his tool so it was his choice what he did with the thing. But in doing so, he joined many others who were already roaming the forums, some who even worked for real-world racing teams, that went from being active members of the modding scene, to a “philosopher” that would just release tiny bits of information. Sometimes, this was real-life technical information being withheld that could potentially contribute to the success and authenticity of a mod.

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Most modding teams have absolutely no idea what they are doing when it comes to car physics. Sure, the models and sounds may be top-notch, but how the car drives is mostly guesswork because much of the legitimate data has been withheld, or tools that could help the car’s simulation value have been hoarded for private use. For example, the VLM Prototype mod that everyone lost their marbles over.. The GTPC release? I’ve never seen a Group C prototype weaving at speed. As for the DRM team, the guys behind the highly acclaimed Group 5 touring car mod? They didn’t even look at the real life lap times to see that the rFactor cars were lapping almost ten seconds quicker than the real world entries – and they also think a bulky Group 5 touring car has the inertia of a Formula Ford. And as you yourself covered with the EnduRacers Porsche Cup mod, they believe tires can never overheat, and modern GT cars are to be driven sideways.

But you know what? It’s not their fault. They did the best they could, or at least what they thought seemed acceptable using their judgement. Hell, I made some pretty bad stuff when I was first starting out as well. One has to learn the hard way.

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Instead, I blame two other entities on this problem. The philosophers, and sim racers themselves.

It’s easy to see what I’m getting at with the philosophers. Some back then, specifically those who claimed to have full-time jobs in the auto racing industry, are just here to fill their ego with some sense of grandeur. They have no problem saying you are doing it wrong, but the minute you ask them for useful info, they all refuse, usually claiming either a lack of time (yes, because they have the time to lurk, but not the time to help), or some sort of confidentiality agreement (yes, because telling us what kind of downforce level an F1 car rear wing generates is going to give the secret away to rival teams). Others, like Niels (and I’m not ripping on him, I respect the guy, his work, as well as the info he did share) were snatched up by developers, or have other businesses, and they have no interest in giving their tools or info away to random modders on the internet. After all, they were once random modders on the internet as well, and they don’t want to accidentally give their secrets away to someone who could take their job away from them. Guys like Niels don’t want to mistakenly create the next Niels.

At the end of the day, what happens is that sim racing modders are still using software like carFactory instead of progressing forward into a new level of authenticity. If you search for any real information about real world car values, technical data, or tools that can help you ease the learning curve of car physics editing, you won’t find much within the sim racing community. You’re better off visiting F1Technical, or a variety of amateur auto racing forums.

It’s impossible to rely on past knowledge, because although there’s a lot of info about what the variables mean inside the isiMotor engine, there isn’t a whole lot of info regarding how it is in real life.

But does our second entity, the sim racers playing with these mods… Do they even care?

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Some do. In fact, many claim they do. Most, however, don’t.

If you read PRC.net regularly, you know most sim racers don’t even play their favorite racing sims all that much. And when they do, they’re more interested in shiny graphics and popular cars, rather than authentic and accurate physics. And when I say accurate, I don’t mean hard, that’s not the point. But most of them don’t care even if the mod is unnecessarily difficult, and most don’t know nearly enough about cars as they think they do. For example, if I say “wider tires don’t always produce more grip”, this alone will blow most self-proclaimed tech-savvy sim racers, because they believe the opposite is common sense.

Modding teams know this, as do the developers of most popular sim racing titles. They know people have absolutely no idea what makes an early 1990’s Mercedes DTM entry tick, so they don’t bother digging too deep. As long as it produces roughly the same lap times as the real thing, that’s all that matters. And even if sim racers did care, the real information is extremely difficult to find, that developers would rather just release it in an acceptable state rather than spend months or years searching for the information.

Yes, some manufacturers do give certain developers access to detailed technical information, but honestly, I’d love to see it for myself before I believe the marketing hype. I’d be interested in seeing the detailed CAD drawings that McLaren supplied Kunos with to create the 650S suspension – or the wind tunnel plots that Project CARS used for their Radical. And I’d love to ask the guys at Kunos how they simulated the actively dampened suspension on the McLaren road car. Many of these developers started as modders themselves, and they shifted their focus to money, rather than the community. They cut corners in many more obvious places, do you honestly think they didn’t cut corners when it came down to detailed car physics? Do you really think they have auto engineers and experts working on this information?

Developers can always come out and prove me wrong, but they’re too busy banning people from the forums for daring to criticize their game, and the sim racers are too busy discussing how many trees there are in some version of the Nordschleife.

Some golden age, hey?


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I knew something was up in regards to the quality of sim racing physics when iRacing, what was apparently the ultimate leader in racing sim technology for several years in a row, went through something like seven different tire model builds that all drove in a completely different manner. I mean, iRacing came out after a truckload of hype and fanfare because it was the revival of Papyrus to an extent. Sim racers praised the handling model as the most realistic thing ever, which was understandable because there wasn’t much competition aside from GTR Evolution back then. A couple months later, a new update to the tire model came out, because that’s been David Kaemmer’s eternal science project – theoretical tire behavior.

The same sim racers who once praised the old handling model now shit on the old version while praising the new version. This process has repeated itself three times a year, for something like eight years since the game was first released to the public. The same guy who recorded Kurt Busch’s tirade at Homestead actually made a montage of the Old Tire Model behavior – and keep in mind at one point sim racers were praising this:

With absurd car behavior like this, it’s hard to think of a company like iRacing as having some sort of huge technical development team behind it. And like our anonymous physics guru above has explained, this has been a trend not just in iRacing, but throughout the sim racing community. Very few people, even the big companies, have any idea what they’re doing.

Grand Prix Legends was praised for it’s authenticity – and then five years later people are questioning why they ever put up with such an unrealistic depiction of car behavior aside from the raw challenge. RaceRoom Racing Experience currently has an issue that allows you to run a low downforce aero configuration across every car in the game, even at technical tracks like Macau, without any noticeable downsides. And as we discussed a few weeks ago, the highly popular Flat 6 mod by EnduRacers had tires that literally didn’t wear.

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Do owners of Project CARS care that no tire compound in the game behaves as it should? No. Do owners of ARCA Sim Racing care that only Superspeedway bodies have been modeled, making for a truly awkward display on short tracks and road courses? No. Do sim racers care that Assetto Corsa doesn’t model oil temperature or brake fade? No. When the iRacing Peak Anti-Freeze Series was running over 10 mph faster into turn three at Daytona than the real life NASCAR Sprint Cup cars did, was anyone allowed to mention it on the forums without getting banned? No. The more you dig, it appears everyone in this is basically stuck in the mud with half-realistic car behavior and pretty graphics to cover it all up.

For a genre that aims to be something more than just half-assed vehicle behavior, we’re certainly not there yet.

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103 thoughts on “Reader Submission #84 – What Accuracy?

  1. rf2 brings u soso racing with GUESSWORK physics,MONO sound immersion and MEH graphics…Man children backward racing sim software..BURN IT NOW>

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    1. Yeah, this seems like a pretty realistic overview of how things are actually done. The available evidence (besides mostly empty words) supports the conclusion.

      I would argue that a decent number of readers already know that width has a point of negative returns, the contact patch goes to hell pretty quickly. Certain cars with factory spec tyre width even prove this rule. Even real cars are far from immune to this sort of nonsense.

      Still, I’m not knocking the statement. It’s a good example all around.

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    2. Damn it, didn’t mean to reply to troll boy and his bullshit.

      If you don’t respect rf2 for what it does right, you’re simply not interested in simulators.

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      1. What’s your problem really? AC has plenty of valuable mods and official content that you don’t need to download quick conversions, or at least use them for more than one time after installing.

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      2. “”What’s your problem really? AC has plenty of valuable mods”””

        I like AC, but I don’t consider it a sim, moreso a very good simcade.

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      3. I want to bother with rf2 mods, but there hardly are any. Besides some mentally challenged manchilds with sticks up their asses, noone really cares about rf2. Your retarded reply with nothing but shouting and cursing will prove my point.

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      4. “rf2 brings u soso racing with GUESSWORK physics,MONO sound immersion and MEH graphics…Man children backward racing sim software..BURN IT NOW>”

        “What’s your problem really? AC has plenty of valuable mods and official content that you don’t need to download quick conversions,”

        It was a reply to baw bags up there, untwist ya knickers, AC has a few good mods yes,but not as much as ppl make out, when plebs say “heaps of mods brah” thats teh kinda mods they are talking.

        “Why bother with rf2 mods, when you can have one of these top grade mods, researched by top forza players around the world and guaranteed top of the line physics https://www.youtube.com/user/NBatalha96/videos , AC is truly taking modding to the next level with this QUALITY content.”

        “I want to bother with rf2 mods, but there hardly are any. Besides some mentally challenged manchilds with sticks up their asses, noone really cares about rf2. Your retarded reply with nothing but shouting and cursing will prove my point.”

        Im sorry sir but where did i “shout and swear”? I’M interested why you tackle my post but ignore the far more retarded post I was responding too?, I think Ive got me self a little following, where ppol feeel they need to work damage control on my replys? also about lack of mods, can you list good proper AC mods compared to RF2? I think youd be surprised how little difference there is, the fact I can race rf2 mods offline too is a big advantage, but you know, fuck facts, (shit I managed to not swear, fuck it.)

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      5. “I want to bother with rf2 mods, but there hardly are any”

        The LOLZ is real.
        My 80GB rFactor2 install begs to differ.

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      6. Assetto Corsa was built with modding in mind and it’s selling point – it doesn’t mean the game is shite because people rip Forza models and use them for AC mods.

        If that’s the arguement then rFactor must be a massive pile of horseshit because people have been ripping car models from other games and putting them into isiMotor 2 games for years.

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  2. Its not a good modern engine, in fact it never was all that good at any sort of simulation. Its an approximation engine. Just so everyone is aware and this is a bit of insider info there is only 1 sim on the market built around an actual simulation engine. It was originally built (and still used) as a product for insurance companies to simulate vehicles in certain conditions. It simulates not only the vehicle tires and all but also air, heat etc. Its not approximating what a vehicle will do it simulates what a vehicle will do while its also simulating what the air around the vehicle is doing and it simulates basically everything you can think of at an extremely high rate and requires at minimum 14 threads at 100% utilization to work.

    Doesn’t matter what game it is what matters is the absurd love and fanboy devotion the community built around isi have. Its time to move on BUT small studios just aren’t up to the task they simply can’t afford to design a proper engine.

    The solution? Could be crowd funding mixed with investor funding. Who knows…could be something else.

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    1. This mystery sim w/ 14 threads is still not reality, it’s just a better model, a better approximation. You could use 100 threads and make a model that would blow the mystery sim out of the water. And likewise, our current models make old sims like GPL look silly. But if you need a supercomputer to run the mystery sim, what’s the point? If our current average desktops are not really capable of this level of simulation for a “proper engine”, then I’m not really grasping your argument. I think we’d all love to see a sim that complete, but is it a matter of developer skill and investment or consumer PC power?

      Also, why not let us in on your secret: what is the mystery sim?

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  3. I find it funny how you think niels is some god, but looking at his work all he does is cut corners. His work is honestly no better than the endurance racers flat 6.

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    1. …False.

      The tyre models on the majority (or all?) of his somewhat recent productions are considerably better than the completely fucked up heating/grip curves in flat6…

      Flat 6 is broken, denial of reality doesn’t change the parameters in any context besides your own personal version of reality.

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      1. Edit* Taking the rf2 physical model and modifying it like they did with flat6 is blasphemy and largely ruins the point of RF2.

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      2. And that’s a key problem with the rf2 style “make everything editable”. yes, for the demigod who knows everything about cars, it’s more flexible. But for your average modder, it’s that many more things to fuck up. There’s no car in AC where grip increases at high slip angles, why? Because even if a modder is that stupid and tries to adjust it to fix some perceived problem, there’s no setting to allow it to have the grip there.

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    2. I like how people still think making the suspension behave accurately within the limitations of the engine instead of using extremely limited features only implemented for F1 games is corner cutting.

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  4. It does seem that this community has an odd attitude toward physics. Seeing as most of us will never drive the kinds of cars that exist in sims, it is fair to say that a lot of this comes down to personal taste, which presents a problem in that people might hate a car that behaves exactly like it does in real life yet love one where the physics are completely wrong. I think a lot of people like certain cars because they’re (unrealistically) hard to drive and they can brag about how much time they’ve spent trying to master the strange behavior even when the real car does not exhibit said behavior. Or maybe a car becomes popular because it’s too easy to drive.

    Personally, I don’t care how easy or hard the car is to handle. I want it to behave like it does when I see the car on track in real life. Give it to me as it really is and I can deal with setting it up to suit my driving style. If these are simulations, shouldn’t the goal be to strive for the most accurate representation of the vehicle that is possible, regardless of how people will react to it? Of course, the reality is car manufacturers and racing teams are understandably reluctant to give up data so perfect recreation really isn’t possible in most cases.

    And to comment on the graphics vs physics comments, why can’t we have both? Again, a simulation should strive to replicate the actual driving experience, and that includes visuals, though I agree, not at the expense of physics. But I’m still sick of rFactor, good as it was, and think we need to wean ourselves off the ISI Engine.

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  5. Well… so what, frankly? I might be in minority, but I don’t follow or watch a single real racing series, the racing sport actually doesn’t interest me much and, if i l know something about a certain real life car, its because I liked it in a sim and researched it after that. What is fascinating for me are the cars themselves, the whole complex or simple machinery, the sole purpose of which is to basically to defy their own gravity, mass and inertia. I just want, I guess, the driving experience, and I seem to not really mind if it’s exaggerated or overly hard – If it is overly easy, I find it hard to get engaged in it…

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    1. Great point!

      and you’re not alone regarding following real-world racing. I’m in your camp of not really spending any time on that spectator-sport. The driving-experience (simulated or real) has always been the sole centre of attention for me. Online-racing has allowed me to put my ability to the test, myself. Not watching in admiration how other people do it.

      But yeah: that initial release of the Flat-6 mod for rF2… …It only took me one or two laps to notice that this was nowhere near a realistic depiction of the real-world car. For those who would like to sim-drive something like that car, I’d say they’d be better of with the rf1-version, for sure.

      Meanwhile I am “stuck” with a single-player rF2-license that I cannot easily upgrade to the online-version (I was fully prepared to pay another ~€47 on top of my initial purchase on steam-sale, yet it would not allow me to purchase rF2 “once over” – leaving the self-extending online-subscription as the only option: not interested.) <>

      That said, I am sure that I will get some more use out of that title, eventually. Meanwhile on to Automobilista which I have yet to spend some with and drive.

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  6. The Toyota Yaris in Forza 4 is surprisingly accurate. I don’t know how such a lightweight fwd car can lose grip at the rear so easily. But terrifying personal experience has proved that one accurate enough for me.

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  7. Bitch and moan all you want, but are you or this anonymous-submitter actually doing anything positive to bring the genre closer to ‘where it should be’?

    No?, well… *Bill Engvall voice* “Here’s your sign”.

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  8. We are in the dark ages of sim racing. Developers want to focus on milking out the ISImotor engine and other older engines, instead of actually making something new. Project Cars is simcade garbage. Assetto Corsa is just a hot lap simulator with hardly any interesting features and poor AI. iRacing is way overpriced, has 65% of its code from NR2003, and still can’t get the tire model right. SCE/AMS is just rFactor 1.89734893703478239 with empty servers.

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      1. “They have no desire to improve the AC multiplayer system”

        Where they said that? All I read was that it would be expensive to make iracing’s online system in AC. Specifically when asked by RD “could we have a little insight into the developer’s thoughts about a robust player ranking system similar to the system we see in titles like iRacing?”

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      2. “They have no desire to improve the AC multiplayer system”

        exactly, it’s clear that the entire assetto corsa project is just one big cash grab.
        dishonest and completely misleading marketing, pay dlc for sub standard content, a shameful attitude towards physics and realism, blatant disrespect for its user base and moders, arrogance towards critics, buying journos off for positive reviews.

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    1. You people love spewing off that %65 nr2003 code number dont you. Sure maybe it started out that way back in 2008 beta days. But its been pretty clearly laid out by the staff that the majority of the sim has been re-written in the 8 YEARS since going public. The sim today is nothing like what it was even just 3.5 years ago when I first joined.

      It WAS crap then, and pretty damn good now. But obviously saying pretty damn good now is all relative. In another 2-3 years ill probably say its amazing and what we have currently was crap. Hindsight is always 20/20. That’s the name of progress. As long as things are getting better over time, whats the point of complaining. Simulating Car/tire physics has to be some of the most difficult things in all of game development.

      Enjoy it for what we have.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. A hot lap simulator? That’d be nice. Before that happens it needs to become an actual simulator first. You might not like this, but Assetto Corsa is just another simcade garbage worthy of Project CARS.

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  9. Gotta love articles from people with zero knowledge about development … more to it articles doubting the data developers use to develop their virtual cars. This is hilarious. I bet even if you have seen the CAD or tunnel data, you will still say it is fake or was not used to 🙂 (Btw. giving out CADs is quiet usual and nothing special … not sure why you are doubting Kunos here)

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    1. I’m pretty sure James with his connections to Mclaren can ask for deep information about the 650s. Maybe is just easier for him to compare marketing words vs data and believe the marketing words when it suits his agenda against AC, and don’t believe marketing words when it again suits him. More than that, he doesn’t interpret well what the marketing words tell him, because he sees something and the mclaren press release says other.

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  10. >And as we discussed a few weeks ago, the highly popular Flat 6 mod by EnduRacers had tires that literally didn’t wear.
    But That’s Wrong You Fucking Retard. The tyres WEAR fine: you overheat them repeatedly, they shred apart over time. The problem with them is not the wear, but that in the instantaneous moment of you sliding the car, you lose no grip. Which is why you can get them almost 90 degrees sideways and still bring them back, but if you were to do that repeatedly at every turn you’re very shortly going to have no grip and shredded tyres.

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  11. I’ve always said that DRM has horrible physics. There is no way in hell that a Gr.5 car, albeit those cars were, simply put, literally monsters with wheel, can be a match for a Gr.C car. The only cars which matched Gr.C cars were the Porsche 935 JLP-3 and JLP-4. In 1982 and 1983 they dominated the IMSA series, were on par with GTP cars and the JLP-3 in particular is the only car in motorsports history to have won both the 12 hours of Sebring and the 24 hours of Le Mans in the same year.

    DRM mod has good models, but the rest is garbage. No wonder the Capri screen at the top of this article is a 1:1 conversion of the old rF1 model without further improvements; it was already good, no need to do anything else on it.

    If you want a slightly better simulation of the Gr.5 era, the best thing is the BLT mod for GTL. Their Capri handles 10x times better and it’s more realistic than DRM Capri. You can still feel the monstrous engine behind your sorry ass, but you can actually drive it instead of just sliding around like a spastic kid like BlackPanthaa or SlapTrain.

    However, the problem with Gr.5 cars (And to an extent Gr.C and F1 in the ’80s) is that rF1 couldn’t properly simulate the punch in the guts provided by the turbo with its sudden kick everytime you would push the gas. And from what I’ve seen this is still an issue with more recent titles such as projectBroken or AiCrash.

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    1. The 98T in AC does do a pretty good job of kicking like a mule if you use the throttle without enough care, of course this makes it so difficult to drive that nobody bothers. Isn’t that always the way? The easy to drive and good looking mods get the downloads, the ones that take a stab at realistic handling get tested out, praised, and then ignored.

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      1. The 98T on AC does 6G during cornering tho… That’s not right 😛

        But at least turbo lag is simulated I guess, haha.

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      2. The in-game app doesn’t work properly… If you look at street cars for example on a 100% skidpad, they only make around 0.75-0.90 or so. Far too low for the cornering speeds you get.

        You can get the proper numbers with telemetry, not sure which exactly. I’m friends with certain modders and yeah, the 98T is… OP 😛

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      3. As I said, I don’t personally have data. But people I trust do, and the 98T hitting 6G in any conditions other than a crash is laughable. Modern F1 cars don’t even do that, lol.

        And you can feel it anyway when you drive that car… Downforce is way too strong on that car, the corner speed you can manage make no sense compared to what the real car used to do back in 85-86′.

        But anyway, was just an example.

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      4. Gosh, why you or your modding friends don’t back up those statements? I’d honestly like to see them create a thread comparing the lotus 98t output in the game with data from f1s in that season.

        Modern F1s can put between 4-5Gs. Ask your friends to test the lotus 98t g-forces and make a public thread where other people can verify if they got the telemetry right.

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      5. “Modern F1 cars don’t even do that, lol.”

        No, I am the one that keks at you. It’s totally possible as a peak just not something that can be sustained. Well the current cars are not real cornering monsters anyways but say 2008.

        There’s no reason for the 98T to have lower maximum cornering loads than a modern F1 car either. Max load will be in a high speed corner and a turbo car like that ran an absolutely absurd amount of wing and produced extremely high downforce levels, it’s on slow and medium speed corners it would get decimated by (some) newer F1 cars due to tire and braking disadvantages, besides efficiency advantages making up for power differences.

        The mid-80s to early 90s is basically when racing cars reached their direct evolutionary dead end because we reached the point where we could make too much power in a car with too much downforce, everything has been a side grade since.

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      1. I don’t need to show any data you dipshit. Learn how to use Google and go compare the laptimes of the real Gr.5 cars and the virtual Gr.5 cars by DRM Modding Team. Or go compare how those cars really drove like in real life and how they drive in the mod. If your brain is not totally retarded like you seem to be, you’ll notice by yourself how inaccurately quicker those cars are in the mod’s physics.

        Dipshit.

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  12. Obvious that many cars in sim racing have more or less bullshit-physics and when modders getting real data or even drivers input, they will not hide this information from us…

    In every car pack from Kunos and SMS there are cars that are obvious bullshit, like this ridiculous understeering Ruf RT12 R with the breaks of 70´s cars (just AC, the pCars-Ruf seems fine) or this Mazda MX-5 RadBul, supposed to be a drift car but is the worst drift car in the pack.

    All physics engines are simplified and see what´s happen or not happen with this complex isiMotor 2.5 engine. There are only few cars available. How many drift-cars you can get for rF2? One or two with some level of minimum standard? And how many dozens for AC?

    Especially by using my Accuforce without ingame- and just telemetry-FFB the similarities between the titles are very obvious too. There are far less differences between titles than one year ago. The new Corvette in pCars comes close to the one in rF2, the KTM is close the the AC-car and i can live with two or three bullshit-cars if the other ones seems accurate even with the help of real drives feedback. Just Raceroom has to much grip now, the formula car doesn´t feel different and all cars somehow the same. Raceroom is Simcase and has no simulation value.

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    1. lel leynad.. what do you know about the ruf rt12r? Did you see the aero settings on that car’s setup? 0 front, 0 rear. That’s an autobahn setup (germany’s no speed limit highway). And most likely the problem is that you’re trying to turn the car at gt3 speeds/technique, when you should instead slow down more, below 90-80 kph.

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      1. One of the first things i do is setting up the aero. You can do whatever you like in the setup, it´s still a bad car and i don´t think that Porsche/Ruf are building bad cars. I read a test about the Ruf and it seems completely the opposite of the AC-version. And cars with 200 bhp less but same weight are much faster. Does this make any sense?

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      2. In that review of the ruf rt12r, they tested the car at track speeds on a race track or just highway driving? Can you post the link pls.

        But also remind that there are two versions, rwd and awd. The common in real life is awd I think.

        And yea, cars with 200bhp less than the ruf rt12r can definitely be faster around a track. But will depend which car you’re comparing.

        Like

    2. “or this Mazda MX-5 RadBul, supposed to be a drift car but is the worst drift car in the pack.”

      lol when did the Mazda license get announced?

      Like

  13. These simulations are games – yes, games. Games that already attract very low player numbers. Where is the investment, resources and time going to come from to create these ultra-realistic simulators? And who would even play them?

    Very few people playing these sims have any real racing experience, even fewer have practical experience of the cars on offer. Therefore if an approximation of real world car behaviour is fine for the majority of a niche audience, who really cares? It broadly conforms to an expectation and it’s fun to drive, right?

    Simulations clearly aren’t easy to develop. These small teams do what they can with what they’ve got. And in the end your advanced sim is nothing more than a niche title.

    Best be at peace with the way things are or move on.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. I agree with what someone said earlier: it’s tough to properly simulate a race car, as the processing power needed is too damn high. When RaceRoom changed the tyre model the system requirements went up for the CPU. I felt this because running over the kerbs on the Nurburgring was a stresstest for my old processor. So corners HAVE to be cut to provide a working, general-accessible videogame that is still playable and can be enjoyed by beginners.

      I play every week at least a race on Race2Play. I never get the time to test my car properly before a race and develop an optimum setup, so most of the time I’m running some half-assed setup and watching people crash themselves into oblivion and gaining positions from that. I stay on the track and very rarely do I make contact with other cars. I feel like I’m improving at a very slow pace and that’s good. People spend way too much on gear and getting the best possible feeling and too little time driving and more importantly ENJOYING themselves. Most of us are in it for the fun.

      Even if the sim isn’t 100% accurate you will still learn a thing or two about racing cars. Even if the fuel consumption may not be accurate you will learn proper racing strategy. Even if the car slides a bit too easy or has too much grip you will learn to counter-steer and get your ass back on the track. Let’s face it: it’s our own little fantasy world. And I’m OK with that. I like jumping in for some nice, quick, CHEAP racing in a REALISTIC environment.

      No sim is perfect. Get out there, suck at driving and have fun, guys.

      P.S.: James, I really like what you do with the site. Those times that I don’t agree with you are just those. We’re all different people with different opinions. I’m not bashing anyone or anything, I’m just here for the brutality err fun of sim racing 🙂 .

      Liked by 2 people

      1. It would be great though to be able to at least get the pretend cars to lap the same times as real cars, but even with a lot of real data there’s just so much that can be done.

        I wonder how flight sims compare to real planes though. Does anyone have any experience with that?

        Like

      2. That’s pretty much my view on simracing as well. I’m in it for the fun. Accuracy must be there to a degree, but I can’t and won’t expect engineering grade simulation in a real time racing sim game.

        The key here is real time. I have been told by engineers working on tires that they can accurately simulate any condition this tire can possibly be in while driving and I have been told by racing engineers that they do have simulation that can accurately simulate a lap of their car running on a track with different setups to see what is faster.
        None of these simulation run in real time though because they are too slow to process so corners need to be cut for games that simulate AND display more than a dozen cars on track in real time.

        And that is not even looking at the fact that most sim or mod devs do not have the detailed technical and telemetry information real racing teams need to feed their simulations to produce any results at all.

        For as long as hardware is the way it is at the moment, this won’t change dramatically. Even then it wouldn’t be feasible to make a sim with 50 cars that are simulated to the same level as top racing teams do it. You would need a team of engineers working on the physics model of every single car for three months each. If it needs to be accurate, you don’t just boot up Simulink and slap something together quickly. The areo guy in our Formula Student Team needed half a year part time just to accurately simulate our front wing.

        Now that I have made the case why things are the way they are, I need to address where I draw the line between accuracte enough and not accurate enough. I do not have any personal experience driving racing cars, so sometimes it’s hard for me to tell. I think the line is somewhere in the Flat6 mod area. It’s still great fun to slide around, but after watching some onboard YT videos and reading Sev’s article I could no longer suspend my disbelief. I will only continue driving this car if they fix the tyre behavior because it is too obvious for me to forget while driving.
        I can deal with smaller inaccuracies and I will happily drive the default content in AC or AMS because it is accurate enough for me. Honorable mention goes to the Mazda Miata for AC by PURE. I know for a fact that this car isn’t completely accurate, but it’s absolutely close enough to get the character and vibe of the real car across and I love it.

        Like

  14. The confidentiality agreements, being written by lawyers, don’t have room for “what’s reasonable”. There’s only what’s allowed and what’s prohibited, and no amount of community appreciation is worth legal trouble. Plus, goodwill is the only way the real engineers make time for the pretend engineers; squander that goodwill and you won’t see many more chances to work with real data.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. You know, we should protest using this when developers push a lot of content but no bug fixes. Just go on the forums and ask for the Wacky Races DLC. We will not buy anything until the WR DLC is released (or the bugs fixed) XD.

      Like

  15. I will say I wasn’t a huge iRacing fan when I first started almost 4 years ago but I have to say that it is 1000% better than it was then. The feel and driving experience has gotten so much better. The tire model is actually half decent (never perfect obviously). iRacing is currently the best sim racing experience out there at the moment, mostly for the fact of being unrivaled in the multiplayer arena. There isn’t a better actual racing with humans experience at the moment. Online racing is always going to be a shit-show. There is a massive difference between online racing in Project Cars and iRacing with a 20 car grid. Yeah you are always going to get idiots that can’t drive but iRacing is the best of a bad situation. As for the 65% NR2003 code, driver swaps didn’t exactly exist back then. It was 65% back when they first started but I would be surprised if the code was more than 15% currently.

    Like

  16. Speaking about Niels and Reiza, they are in symbiotic limbo. Niels has the tool and knowledge to create probably most developed tires for rFactor based simulations. Reiza needs Niels to create tires and vehicles and Niels milks Reiza as long as he can.
    `

    So how about AC not simulating oil temp? Why should it? Oil temp is result of engine temperature. Oil temp affects the viscosity of the oil, which then affects the lubrication efficiency. That affects mechanical wear rate, and in some degree to friction and heat generation.

    So as long as EVERYTHING is not being taken into account, we can easily drop out full systems to make things simpler. For average sim racer, oil temp has no meaning, it is just one way of telling what temperature range the engine is operating at.

    However, if the player would need to consider different types of engine oil, oil levels and oil changes in general this all would start to make sense. But since proper engine service hasn’t been implemented in any of these games, it is useless information. Of course this is usually done by team engineers and not by driver. But since these games don’t have engineers implemented either, it doesn’t matter if oil temp is simulated or not.

    Now, tell me why oil temp should be simulated?

    There is no point of making a most sophisticated engine simulation unless you give player a possibility to change all the variables as you would in the real world. It is just wasted CPU overhead.

    But real simulation racing games will never come, as people making the games do not care or do not understand how cars work.

    Fuck this.

    Like

    1. Decent point. Excessively high oil temps shouldn’t be a problem in a functional road or race car unless you’re taping off ventilation in front of the oil cooler. It’s far more relevant to flight sims, especially with regards to CEM.

      I’m not exactly sure how I feel about rf2’s engine temp simulation, even if it is apparently unmatched by other sims.

      My best hotlaps usually have some amount of smoke coming from the engine. Something’s not right there. When you get an engine smoking, the cylinder linings are essentially out of spec (expansion, significantly accelerated wear due to less tolerance between the rings and linings). There’s really no penalty for essentially destroying an engine during hotlap and the majority of rf2’s disciplines do not account for quali-race engine swaps…

      That said, I would rather see a developer at least consider the parameters. It not all that complex to implement rudimentary temp simulation.

      Like

      1. I agree, most of the engine calculations are fairly simple if we avoid overthinking it. But since engine tuning, repair and service is not considered as important aspects of racing (in games, that is) implementing such calculations seem just waste of time and resources.

        Some day it might change, but now it seems that there is no hope. Developers should change their brains.

        Like

      2. In the absense of hot engine smell they have to show you the heat somehow, smoke is better than having a little HUD flash that your engine is now orange imo.

        Like

    2. “Now, tell me why oil temp should be simulated?”

      Hmm. Maybe because.. oh, I don’t know, it’s supposed to be a simulation?
      Just a thought.

      Where do you draw the line, then? No brake temps or wear either? No aero simulation, would that be okay too? Hmm, tyres perhaps, they could skip simulating tyre temps, that would be cool too. Screw simulating tyre wear too, not important.

      Listen to yourself, mayn.

      Like

      1. It’s like simulating the A/C… obviously it’s not a full simulation of a car without it, but in the real world it’s one of the “deal with it and then the car drives with no issue” features. Sure you could go for the special cases where it affects things (no oil = dead engine, A/C on = parasitic power loss) but that’s more a gimmick than something people will actually have happen in a race.

        Like

      2. Do you want a racing simulator or engine simulator? I guess people here are mostly into racing simulators, so basically all you need is power and torque output from a engine added with some fuel consumption.

        No?

        Like

  17. I thought generally everyone knew that mods were just approximations? How is one suppose get real data for hundreds of vintage racers before real live telemetry collection was possible? My understanding is that they make guesses at the engine torque/hp curve, weight, weight distribution, downforce, braking, coefficient of grip and drag.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. But most of those old cars are still run today in historical events such as Rennsport Reunion at Laguna Seca for Porsches or Le Mans Classic for everything else. A lot of those cars are modified to run with modern motecs and dashboards for example and it isn’t impossible to find data from dyno test runs done in the last 10-15 years.

      If you would have bothered to do some basic researches, you would have found plenty of data available for a lot of those old cars. There are specific sites such as RacingSportsCar.com, a lot of enthusiast forums, small niche websites, websites and Facebook groups with people who actually know their stuff (Mulsanne Corner), etc etc etc.

      Informations are available. Most modders are just too lazy to actually go and look for them. Just like you did before talking nonsense.

      Like

      1. All you can really get out of that website is lap times which is helpful, but doesn’t really say if the car handles properly and if seconds off, doesn’t necessarily mean the car is wrong. The car would still end up being an approximation without proper data.

        Like

      2. Mulsanne’s Corner reports overall downforce/drag figures, but that’s 2 numbers out of the hundreds you need in order to fully set up a car’s aero. Yes it’s better than nothing, but if that was the extent of a modern simulation’s attention to detail people would rightfully laugh at it.

        Like

  18. Well, this is how things work, and it is hard to imagine it would be different, unless there was a 10x larger audience for simracing, and actual development on new simulation engines (AC is trying, but apparently not to the approval of many PRC regulars…)

    It’s also weird to criticize continuous improvements as “science projects”, when this is how progress is made. All simulation models are by necessity approximations, you just hope that over time you get closer.

    Would it be nice if all shared info? Sure! After capitalism, I guess…

    Like

    1. Sure, science develops and is all the time being worked on. However, I don’t think such projects should be sold as entertainment products.

      Like

      1. If you don’t want to take part, you have rfactor 1 to buy, gt legends, gtr2, race07, etc. These are closed projects, and were so shortly after their release.

        Like

  19. It’s not too tough to get accurate vintage data for torque/hp curve, weight, weight distribution, or braking. Downforce, drag, and inertia are tougher to come by, requiring more homework and educated guessing.

    Vintage tires are guesswork… most modders are taking data from modern vintage race tires (thank you Dunlop!), but those are radial tires with synthetic rubber compounds emulating historical tires rather than bias ply tires with natural rubber compounds. Consequently, the tire pressure ranges are about 1/3 too low compared to historical values.

    Like

  20. Now, this is a story all about how
    My life got flipped-turned upside down
    And I’d like to take a minute
    Just sit on your bum
    I’ll tell you how I became the champ of a game called F1

    In sunny Stevenage born and raised
    On the kart track was where I spent most of my days
    Spinnin’ out driftin’ shiftin’ all cool
    And driving some fast laps while doing shit at school
    When a man called Den who was up to no good
    Started offering contracts in my neighborhood
    I got in one little race while Wesley was choking
    Dad said ‘You’re movin’ with your uncle Ron in Woking’

    I got in my car and when it came near
    The logo said Vodafone and there were Ferraris in my mirror
    If anything I could say that this car was quick
    But I thought ‘nah forget it, Alonso’s a prick’

    I pulled up to last corner about fourth or fifth
    And I yelled to Timo Glock “why’d you not pit?”
    I looked at Massa’s tears
    It was finally done
    To sit on my throne as the king of F1

    Like

  21. Something truly sad about the current state of sims, modding communities, devs and gullible sim consumers above all. I’ve been wondering about this for a while too despite not knowing anything about translating car physics to the virtual world.
    But how can you do it better??? Not like a dev of mod team can just go to wikipedia or some online library and look up CAD sheets, and hard data on real cars not to even mention friggin tires. Just like a gurus don’t want to give away their secrets, car manufacturers are not very willing to part with hard data despite being happy with licensing money for the legality of their badge on a virtual representation of their car.
    On another note: theoretical tire behaviour. How exactly can anyone replicate/simulate proper tire behaviour? Does anyone know if even tire manufacturers have programs that can fully simulate their tires’ behaviour? I doubt it, but then, there is the issue that more than one manufacturer exists and tires from different manufacturers have very different behaviours.

    Like

    1. Quality over quantity. AC and Pcars are packed full compared to RF2 and AMS but most are just gamers that suck at driving and can’t even brake for the first turn and you rarely finish a race with more than 20% that started in the race. These dropout rates are due to the younger generation of ADD/ADHD douches that go for these types of simcade games.

      I race RF2 and AMS online every day and most drivers are quite good and very rarely are there any first turn pile ups and much lower dropout rate.

      The racing in the “pretty” sims flat out sucks. You can have your quantity(at race start..lol) and good sim racers will stick with quality.

      Like

      1. Even in rF2 land it can be tough finding drivers who can go the distance. Of 7 starters for 30 minute historics race, there were only 3 still alive at 10 minute mark. Damage was at a mere 30%, too.

        Like

      2. Crash kiddies lives mater.

        But still, you can find the lighter servers where you can race safely. For example this evening I was racing on Spa with other 6 drivers 5 laps, alfa romeo gta vs lancia fulvia, we all made it well past the first corner, and had a normal race until the end (tight race though, cars are very fast but are/can be dangerous in corners, whereas gt3/gt2 are easier in corners).

        Like

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