Reader Submission #98 – Educate Yourself

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We’re kicking off Friday the 13th here at PRC.net with a lengthy piece concerning everybody’s favorite topic – Assetto Corsa’s lack of simulation value. Today’s Reader Submission comes from JZ Studios Online, who has kindly penned us an extraordinarily detailed piece discussing the game’s highly controversial tire model. The entry essentially serves to back up Sev’s recent findings, where longtime Assetto Corsa players are noting the overall driving experience seems to have been neutered in preparation for the next generation console release. This is one you should probably grab some snacks for – there’s some reading comprehension involved.


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Good afternoon, PRC. I don’t know if you guys are still able to patrol the Assetto Corsa forums or not – I keep hearing you’re banned – but I’ve had a recent spat on the forums inside the Forza 6: Apex thread, and wanted to draw attention to it. This might take some time to elaborate upon.

To produce a brief summary, some guys were toting how much better Assetto Corsa is than Forza, when they can currently only play Forza 6: Apex on a gamepad. My counter-argument was that Assetto Corsa is on relatively even terms with Turn 10’s newest release, citing the inherent understeer and the lack of full throttle wheelspin. After taking a lot of fire, the heavens themselves opened up and Lord Kunos appeared to offer his guidance:

“Educate yourself, buy four to five books about car dynamics, and spend the good part of the next three years studying and understanding them. Perhaps, then, we might have a chance of a serious discussion. Until that point, please go back on the thread topic, and stop derailing the discussion into a sim war nobody is interested in. I wouldn’t like to have to close the thread because of you, and I won’t; I’ll rather let you go for a couple of weeks.

And while you’re at it, practice some driving as well.”

Now, for a bit of context. There’s an astrophysicist/game physics guru named Brian Beckman, who has worked on many racing simulators including Forza. I’d like to share with you the following video. As a word of warning, this piece is over 60 minutes long.

It’s honestly a brilliant video where he describes the complexities that go into a proper tire simulation, and a full vehicle simulation. I know it’s a bit long, but I think it’s well worth a watch.

And to which Lord Kunos replied:

“Pretty comprehensive for 1990, too bad it’s 2016.”

I responded with a snarky “true, but too bad he’s using Windows XP, which came out in 2003. It’s not like physics suddenly change from one year to the next. What calculations do you use for slip angles on the longitudinal and latitudinal axis then, if not official lab data? I mean, if you guys really found something new and groundbreaking that actually makes that outdated and irrelevant I’d honestly love to know.” The original Forza Motorsport was also released in 2005.

Moving on.

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I bring this piece back to the original comment by Lord Kunos, and I indeed followed up on what he’d suggested. I did some research. And he’s the biggest lying cunt I’ve ever seen. Still, I was not about to be out-assholed by some smelly bald Italian, so I gave a quick whip back with this:

“You know what, you’re right, I’m sorry. I forgot that in the space between 1990 and 2016 the physics forces applied to tires had changed. After doing some suggested research, I found that you are correct in everything you say, and certain forces that acted upon tires in the days of yonder no longer do today. I found some interesting articles provided by the largest tire manufacturer in the world about how they managed to locally eliminate forces applied to the tire, thus producing certain friction-less elements. I think the world’s largest tire manufacturer should have pretty reliable information.

While we were in brief discussion, I did not start a sim war. I brought up that I find the cars to understeer and your fans retaliated. I don’t want to have a war, or to make people angry, but if the mere discussion of one sim versus another makes people upset, then I’m afraid I don’t know what to do. I’d like to pursue the truth and find out for myself, but having fanatics on both sides clouds the picture and gets no answers. Much less when the head honcho himself comes to jump in and say his piece, but instead uses that opportunity to not try and connect with a customer who PAID for his product, but instead decides to turn to insult. I personally am not offended easily, but when someone asks for an explanation, when did it become acceptable to call them an idiot, and incapable of understanding?

Doing my research after one article, I stumbled upon this page:

beck

For a real quick summary: He’s talking about Beckman’s video and the current issues with using the Pacejka curve model. Namely, the Pacejka curve shows the amount of force/grip a tire has at all points. The problem is, when not moving, or moving in a straight line, the model comes closer to a divide by zero situation. This required a lot of older sims to use a secondary physics engine below a certain speed where you could tell things were different. Using the Pacejka curve at a near zero velocity causes the tires to oscillate quite violently, more so than acceleration or braking.

The problem is, the tires never actually return to 0 velocity, and so the tires are still constantly moving. In the link above is a video of an early iRacing tire model where this anomaly causes a car to slide down a hill, since the tires are constantly moving ever so slightly in that direction, regardless of brakes being applied. And again, this has nothing to do with whether or not transient tire effects are modelled or anything to do with the complexities of measuring transient phenomena in a tire on a tire rig. The same thing will happen regardless of the tire model used as long as slip ratio is used as a direct input into the tire model in this manner.

So, I’m sure AC has figured out that problem, but it does raise some questions. For me the biggest is why does Sir Lord Kunos the Magnificent claim this information is outdated and irrelevant as I’m currently watching the slip angles and slip ratios freak the fuck out and go well beyond standard operating range while simply sitting still. He straight up insulted me and lied to my face, all so he and his little stupid forum fanatics can go suck each other off as they spank the hankey and touch nips. I am now actively motivated to tell people to stay the fuck away from game and doing my own research to find the flaws with it to see what His Glory and the Fourth Reich have to say about it.

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On a side note, I’m trying out the Mercedes SLS, a car known for being bat shit fucking crazy and spinning in circles on corners, and I’m finding that impossible to accomplish without the handbrake. Not only is there under steer, but the tires WILL NOT slip coming out of corners under full throttle. I’m also no expert, but I’m pretty sure that when I full throttle it through a turn my RPM’s should raise a little more than not at all. How dare I try and point any of this out on the forums though, in that case I’m a fucking lunatic who can’t drive.

You may not care about this at all, but at least the video and the article are worth a read. I just thought it might be nice to share some information with someone who isn’t bat shit crazy and hasn’t drank the kool-aid of imperfectly perfect physics. In the same argument, people agree that the physics are perfect, but I’m still an idiot and I can’t drive, because the physics aren’t flawed, I am.


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It’s no secret I’ve been active on SimRacingSystem over the past few days, and it’s allowed me to evaluate the current tire model within Assetto Corsa in a competitive environment. Unfortunately, what Sev had found originally has only been strengthened by my own participation in these pickup races. The cars are indeed significantly easier to drive compared to the Early Access version of Assetto Corsa, which is obviously a step in the wrong direction considering the overall goal of a racing simulator. There’s little to no throttle management on corner exit, the vehicles don’t exhibit a fine dance at the limit of grip laterally, and despite the Soft compound tires really getting a workout according to the tire application, only the lap times are any indication that the rubber underneath me is degrading. It honestly feels a bit like Project CARS. You just sort of point and shoot. The little shit that you have to do in isiMotor sims, like nursing the car to the apex or carefully rolling on the throttle… Yeah, you don’t have to do that anymore.

I mean, I could have just gotten the setup right, and I’ll attach it to this post so others can try, but it’s like Kunos have taken all of the talent out of wheeling a car around at the front of the pack.

Click HERE to try the BMW M3 E92 GT2 Setup I use on SimRacingSystem.

As for Stefano, his stubbornness, and the general inability for Kunos to take criticism, I must ask where you’ve been for the better part of a year? This isn’t really anything new. At this point, we almost need a focus group for all the major sim racing developers, where they can role play with each other and create methods to help them handle genuine criticism – not everybody is going to treat them in the way their private Skype clique does.

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149 thoughts on “Reader Submission #98 – Educate Yourself

  1. JZStudios… JayZ, is it you?

    How about you press Ctrl+T to disable traction control and then see if you can’t spin the SLS. While you’re at it, please make a gameplay video along with pedals input app and steering wheel in cockpit view visible.
    Then we will judge your driving and ability/inability to spin a car.

    Like

    1. Yeah, it’s me. And Haha, I might not know a hotkey command that’s irrelevant with an actual button in the main screen before I start the race. It’s a nice fallback option though. I’ll finally make a video about it since the default ctrl+T is your guys main argument.

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      1. I thought JZStudios was some youtube channel that dedicated itself to creating art videos of racing games. Now JZStudios is JZ Simulazioni Studios? The new simulation experts on the block?

        But yea, looking forward to your gameplay video. Please be aware and select Pro assists and then in game turn off TC with the shortcut Ctrl+T.

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        1. Is Ctrl + T a new meme I’m not aware of? Turning off TC is the first thing I do in any session because it’s free speed.

          There was a point in time where using it strategically could benefit your setup, but those days are long gone because muh Xbox kiddies needed a more forgiving tire model.

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          1. You want TC to strategically benefit your setup? Then don’t use 1/12, which is the most aggressive step. Go higher, maybe something like 7/12, which gives more freedom between assisting the car and between letting it turn better/slip a bit. That’s why these cars have TC and ABS with steps, because the professional drivers want to customize the assists depending on track conditions and car setup, or their skill.

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          2. So tires don’t slip even without TC? What the fuck are you smoking? GT-cars are very sensitive on throttle without TC and as mentioned, TC on 1 is the strongest TC. Made for millionaires who wants to drive race cars. AC has by far the best TCS-simulation available today. Better than pCars and way beyond the low, medium, high Bullshit in rF2.

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      2. TC is activated as standard in the SLS even when disabled in the menu. You have to Ctrl+T manually. It’s cumbersome and unintuitive, but every car in AC starts out with factory setting in every session. Factory setting for the SLS is full TC.
        AC might not have the most realistic physics, but: The tires don’t spin on exit with full TC? Wo’d have thunk.

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  2. “As for Stefano, his stubbornness, and the general inability for Kunos to take criticism, I must ask where you’ve been for the better part of a year?”

    Which criticism has JZStudios made about the simulation value of AC? He is not capable of having the needed technical discussion with a physics developer. His criticism is basically “physics sucks”, “this is all wrong”, “look at this video of a person talking about physics”. What is Stefano supposed to do with that? What JZStudios is doing is not helping anyone. JZ is not creating the proper environment for a physics or tyres discussion. Why? Because JZ has no education in these matters, and we could all see by the ‘arguments’ he wrote about AC. Stefano told him well to spend some years reading and learning about car physics and tyres. Then hopefully JZ will be capable of having a mature discussion about physics.

    Liked by 2 people

      1. Ok, say they lower the longitudinal grip (but by how much? where do you see what’s the right value for longitudinal/lateral grip?), what would be the car or tyres behavior afterwards?

        ps. pls delete the same post from below, I replied to you but somehow it got placed as a new post, not as reply to yours.

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        1. I’ll speak on really simple terms here:

          If longitudinal grip during the spring of 2014 was, let’s say… 0.83129…
          And longitudinal grip as of May 2016 is, for example… 1.03274…

          Use the old value.

          I’m aware it’s more complex than that, but it’s what I’m getting at.

          OR, and I’m going to make things SUPER SIMPLE for Kunos here – fuck with the track grip.

          Make “Green” the new “Optimal,” and obviously scale the rest of the settings back as well. Make the hypothetical new 100% track grip behave like the current 93%. Boom, done.

          Again, I’m not a dev, but essentially scaling back the tarmac grip/rubber build up is a really easy fix that could get things really close to where the hardcore sim racers want it within a single hotfix.

          The goal is to get to a situation where you’re required to roll onto the throttle in the higher powered cars without TC. Currently, it’s point and shoot.

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          1. Wouldn’t that sort of thing show up in laptimes? Aren’t the GT class cars uniformly slower than they’ve ever been before?

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          2. Actually James, it’s even simpler than that. That force curve Beckman is talking about is used by tire manufacturers. If AC got in contact with them they could get the actual real world values. It is highly possible that the tire model is correct, in which the fault lies elsewhere in the simulation.

            Liked by 1 person

          3. I’m not gonna comment on the tyres, as is something technical for devs to check if they want, but why don’t hardcore sim racers use lower track grip% than 100? Are these the same hardcore sim racers that want rain to then just use dry conditions ‘all the time’? (rf2).

            AC won’t change optimum to green % because optimum is not unrealistic and they want this option for inexperienced gamers. But the experienced sim racers should pick their settings accordingly.

            And for the love of God, please disable TC and make a video where you can’t spin the car (this is to anyone who keeps saying the same stuff).

            Something extra: asphalt from a race circuit is more grippy than a normal city road.
            – “Imagine achieving speeds of 200 mph and heading into a 90-degree turn or tighter. The road surface has to work for the driver.” http://theasphaltpro.com/racetrack-mixes-require-perfection/

            – ” “We’ve never worked on a paving project before that has this level of control and specificity,” said Mills. “It makes sense that they’re expecting near perfect conditions to optimise the performance of these elite F1 drivers.(…)”. http://www.worldhighways.com/sections/key-projects/features/circuit-of-the-americas-formula-for-f1-success/

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            1. What happens in AC is that even a server using a relatively low level of grip, generates a ton of grip due to the sheer amount of cars running on it.

              I think the issue is split half & half between the tire model & the track grip.

              Will the issue be rectified? That’s the biggest question. Again, this all started to go downhill when AC was announced for consoles, so it’s might not something Kunos are actively looking to fix if you know what I’m saying.

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              1. Why should Kunos fix something, that isn´t broken? Just because you think so? Try to drive an 8:05,7 @VLN-Nürburgring in the GT3 like Frank Stippler in the last race with track temps under 20° C and Upload this video to show us how much faster you can drive. But this lap time was during a race with 150 other opponents in many different car classes.

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                1. PS: Jörg Müller in his BMW M6 GT3 just did a 8:04,5 @VLN with air temps around 8° C in lap 12. So probably in the 4. lap after pit stop and probably with traffic as well (>150 cars on track).

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            2. Lowering the track grip doesn’t significantly alter the handling characteristics of any of the cars (you use the same techniques except you’re not cornering as fast; this is also the case in sims that “simulate” rain by lowering the track’s grip and making everything look gray and shitty) but it’s probably worth noting that most if not all of the top laptimes in AC are already pretty close to reality at 100% grip, and certain things that grognards claim are unrealistic (like taking Eau Rouge flat out in a GT3 car) are completely doable in reality.

              There are some highly dodgy aspects to AC’s physics (ex: not having to lift before quiddelbacher hohe to keep the car from doing a backflip) but the amount of grip or the slip characteristics of the tires seem completely reasonable.

              Liked by 2 people

              1. On the cars with flat undersides (GT3, plus the P1/LaF/etc.) you can certainly lift the nose on that bump way more than the manufacturer would recommend (like, 4-5 feet easy). Not sure if you can get a full flip cause I haven’t tried.

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              2. Under normal conditions cars will not flip at Quiddelbacher Höhe. The Nissan flipped only once because of strong winds during the race and a new Aero package they used the first time. The nose is lifting up quite a bit in AC depending on the car and better to avoid it.

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          4. “AC has no simulation value because of two numerical values.”
            “AC half-asses DLC car physics because we found two numerical values that look similar.”

            I’m seeing a pattern here.

            Liked by 2 people

  3. JZStudios is way better at finding buzzwords than he is at educating himself… you can’t just say “tire model is bad, slip ratio is bad,” and automatically win an argument.

    If he wanted to actually educate himself, Stefano discussed how AC handles the low-speed grip problem in one of his streams, that doesn’t mean he’s going to do a one on one beginner tutorial on tire physics every time someone has an understeer moment and thinks their Hyundai wouldn’t have understeered.

    Earlier in the same thread he said Forza looked better than AC and to back up his claim, posted a CG render, apparently unironically believing it was a photograph. The hit to his credibility was pretty rough but he immediately bounced to a new topic, vis the tire model, and with no more sense behind his claims than before.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. You’re right, I’m not a professional. Finding buzzwords still proved he lied to my face. At the very least read the article. There’s a DEV app you can turn on that shows slip angles and slip ratios that do exactly as described in the article. I’m not saying AC hasn’t fixed this issue, and as I by chance happened to leave the car sitting on a slight slope for a few hours while I worked on my supercar Hyundai actually proved they have. At this point, that’s to be expected. I didn’t claim to win an argument, I proved he lied to me.

      I might watch the stream if you can link me to it, but I get a feeling it will further enforce catching Stefano in a lie, saying that his own tire model is outdated.

      Let’s not get this out of context, they were specifically talking about paint, and I posted a picture of a less than chrome car. It’s also not CG. Photoshopped, sure, but not CG. I was making a point about the reflectiveness of car paint. Someone then replied with a picture of an actual chrome car, like, yeah, no wonder that’s full shine, it’s a mirror. The topic then moved on. I didn’t change it.
      Here’s a link to the photo I posted. Maybe it’s a bit matte, not super gloss, but still invalidates your argument.

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      1. When the car is stopped in AC, or when you launch the session, the car is artificially stopped. You can see numbers and graphs go crazy because the car isn’t placed completely on the world. But once the car starts rolling, from 0 to 1kmh, the car already is in a normal state with the correct numbers and graphs. I’m not a dev, but these are my observations of this specific situation.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Slip angles and slip ratios are, fundamentally, undefined when stopped. The rest is a programming dilemma, nothing to do with physics – when you write code for apps, you have to define the type of data they’ll display. If an app chooses to display the slip angle as a number, it’s got to provide a number. Otherwise the game would crash every time the car stops, and the app was expecting a number and got something else.

        I don’t know what you’re trying to prove with the photo, it’s obviously doctored and is not a good reference point for ‘what an actual car looks like’, let alone ‘what a normal gloss paint, like the liveries in AC use, looks like’

        That said, here’s a version with more natural tone

        Liked by 1 person

  4. Typical useless PRC Article. I was in a SRS DTM race the other night and I chose soft tires by accident in the 190Evo. By lap 5 I had murdered the tires and it was near impossible to keep pointed in the right direction. I guess I have the special version of AC that’s harder than what everyone else has….

    Liked by 2 people

      1. But you’re on new tyres. Run them down if you want more spinny situations. Although even with new tyres and disabling TC the car spins on itself if you don’t manage the throttle. Especially the supercars.
        Do some laps with the F40 on Nords, by the 3rd/4th lap you must be more careful than in the initial laps. That’s one thing people don’t check when comparing situations from real life with situations from sims, the conditions of those tyres in the moment something happened.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. You are just a AC-hater without much clue about this title and knowledge about GT3-cars. I spend >750 hours in AC and spinning a lot with power oversteer and TC. And GT3-cars are no raw racing cars under the bonnet. They are Supercars made for rich people and pimped with a GT3-upgrade. The private teams have to buy the normal street-car and throw away the stuff to loose weight. And maybe you watched Top Gear some time, because they always say, you can´t turn all assists off in these cars. Maybe GT3 has a software that can provide this, but they have build in mechanical LSD (limited slip differential) that does exactly what it sounds like. Maybe that´s why Kelvin van der Linde said, GT3-cars are “very easy to drive”, so not like in rF2.

        In rF2 the GT3-cars are way to sensible on throttle (especially AM), but on the the other side much to solid on the breaks. The differential physics just sucks and it´s far more easy to break in rF2 than AC with about the same break balance. In the VLN-races this GT3-cars driving 7 to 9 laps in one stint. Try your favorite GT3-car in rF2 just Nordschleife with one set of tires. The first problem is getting enough full in the car for going over 5 laps. The second problem will be the tires after lap 3 and even with the least amount of rain possible the cars behave like crazy. This has IMO no simulation value.

        SRS is providing 7-lap VLN races in the moment and managed to get a third place today. Try it with one stint like in RL and than you can judge the physics in AC;-)

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        1. “GT3-cars are “very easy to drive”, so not like in rF2.”
          ———————————————————————-

          They are easy to drive in rf2 too, but variables like track,race (rubbered in) line, tyre conditions, brake temp,flat spotting etc are done far better and actually work,the effects are far more noticeable, (some not even modeled in AC), none of the modern sims are perticulary hard to drive, ppl that claim they are, are more than likely not very good drivers in any respect.

          ——————————————————————————————————————————
          “In rF2 the GT3-cars are way to sensible on throttle (especially AM), but on the the other side much to solid on the breaks. The differential physics just sucks and it´s far more easy to break in rF2 than AC with about the same break balance”
          ——————————————————————————————————————————

          Defend AC to the death if you want,but stop talking shit, for a start default brake balance in AC is just wrong, every car in AC has a ridiculous amount of front brake bias,what I first thuoght was a noob friendly move, however adjust brake balance to something a bit more respectable (read realistic) and it feels very wrong, everytime, one of the most under developed sim aspects of AC is its brake simulation, in rf2 and even earlier ISI titles, the brake simulation, feel and setups are SUPERIOR to AC in every fucking way, just try any historic car, perfect brakes every time, no warming up needed, no caution needed, just smash them like any race car form the modern era, they essentially the same.

          As far as differentials go, rf2 wins again, in AC going from a fully open diff to a fully locked one is underwhelming to say the least, the change is minor, in RF2 depending on car going just 10 per cent more on diff either way produces a very different ride, pretty much EVERY SINGLE THING thats modeled in setups in both titles rf2 wipes the floor with it,not even a competition.

          You are literally attacking rf2 on its strongest point ya numbty, its like me constantly bagging AC for its “poor’graphics,and saying rf2 wins in graphics department, thats exactly how your (many,and others) comments sounds like to my ears,

          Maybe its not as dumbed down as much or at all as some ppl say, but its certainly not the ultimate super duper sim you fanboy spastics make out,just the missing features alone is enough to not have it as best.

          Besides as my fave biggest vocal fanboy of AC (QUF) always says to me and seems to ignore others doing exactly what he says we shouldnt, ill qoute direct….

          “But why you compare the difficulty of those other games with AC? You should compare each sim with real life. But it would still be subjective,”

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          1. You like to talk and write a lot of words Hash, but you never show any relevant videos of the game or data from real life to back up your stuff. You accuse others of blindly defending AC, yet you are doing the same. Because you are not providing a real life analysis/data that goes against how AC performs. So until you do that, your words against AC or any other sim are pretty much meaningless.

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            1. Yeah I wouldn’t take Hash too seriously, he actually believes that associat0r and hexagramme are secretly pro-AC fanboys who only hate on the game to help it’s cause as part of some conspiracy 😅

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              1. “Yeah I wouldn’t take Hash too seriously, he actually believes that associat0r and hexagramme are secretly pro-AC fanboys who only hate on the game to help it’s cause as part of some conspiracy 😅”

                How much of a pussy do you have to be to go anom when you can just use your already fake name FFS, pussy arse mother fucker, gutless.

                No you are thinking of steam name Pit cock 90 that started that shit,maybe you know him? he has a absolute hard on for associat0r and hexagramme, hex as well being one of the few “commentators” I actually see online regularly, unlike you little bitches

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                  1. “Why so defensive?”

                    I fucking hate pussy anons, fucking pain in arse answering several different “anons” badgering me with bullshit,especially when they use my name like theyve talked to me before yet decide on hiding there already fake names cause they embarrassed to be hanging around PRC, lol pussys,

                    You guys are like those gay arse priests/christians, too ashamed to admit they love ploughing manbums, while condemning those that do admit they love a bit of man loving to hell.

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            2. “You like to talk and write a lot of words Hash, but you never show any relevant videos of the game or data from real life to back up your stuff.”

              Yeah me and every other prick, fuck you are a very targeting person, the guy I was responding too did EXACTLY the same thing, yet its me you constantly barrage to back up my “opinions”, what you want evidence off?

              I aint gotta back shit up, take it or leave just like the hundreds of spastic Rfactor comments you see written by plebs that not only dont back there shit up but talk utter fucking shit.

              Beside there was a guy who use to have a ton of shit on this subject, some of it was just opinions, some was hard data, now what happened to him? oh yeah, you cunts assassinated and doxxed him, good job.

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              1. Hash, then why don’t you ask for evidence when people attack rf2 instead of attacking AC as a form of defense for rf2. That’s really the problem.

                “I aint gotta back shit up, take it or leave just like the hundreds of spastic Rfactor comments you see written by plebs that not only dont back there shit up but talk utter fucking shit.”

                We can basically say the same for your posts. Just don’t attack AC if you don’t have some technical stuff to provide. You can ask the same thing when you see people attack rf2, but trying to stir shit up with AC just because you don’t agree with what someone said of rf2.. if you want to defend rf2, then defend it with real life stuff, not by trying to denigrate AC. And if you want to attack AC and disprove its simulation, then support yourself with real life analysis/data. If you want to defend rf2, going against AC is not the way, otherwise is just a repeating cycle, and then simracing doesn’t advance its simulation value if you only compare sims vs sims, instead of comparing each sim with real life. Otherwise how are the sims going to improve if you just compare between them as some sort of revenge because someone didn’t say nice things about your favorite sim.

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  5. AC fanboys are rushing over here to attack JZStudios when they can’t refute any of the points he makes. They have to start sucking up to Stefano like always.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. But he didn’t make any points. He just pointed to some general physics/tyres stuff. He didn’t show us how that relates to AC and whether what’s in AC is unrealistic. We are not attacking JZ just because, but he doesn’t have any technical arguments comparing what he read to something technical about Assetto Corsa.
      So how can we refute him if he didn’t show us or the devs what is wrong.

      Liked by 2 people

  6. Yeah, the low speed physics in AC are strange to put it mildly. The default stiff feel and understeer of a lot (but not all) of the cars is also a turn-off.

    Imo, AC has its own unique “feel” just like Project Cars does. The other popular sims have their own feel as well of course, but I find they’re not as distinct and in-your-face as the aforementioned. With AC and PC I constantly feel like I can get away with inputs I would consider “highly aggressive” in other games.

    Does that mean its less of a sim than other games? Well, just like most people here, I don’t fucking know. I’m not a fancy pants physicist with access to THE DATA. All I know is that it seems like somethings fucky when I play AC and PC.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. But why you compare the difficulty of those other games with AC? You should compare each sim with real life. But it would still be subjective, especially because in real life is harder/more terrifying than the most difficult sim there is.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. “But why you compare the difficulty of those other games with AC? You should compare each sim with real life. But it would still be subjective, especially because in real life is harder/more terrifying than the most difficult sim there is”

        In other words, as soon as my fave sim is demonstrable or measurably proven not as good as (insert other sim or real life), then I can constantly pull this line outta me arse to try shut it down, shill handbook 101.

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        1. “In other words, as soon as my fave sim is demonstrable or measurably proven not as good as”

          But no one demonstrated or measurably proved that. If someone did it, where can we read and see his technical and objective analysis?

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  7. “[AC’s] underlying physics engine is actually really fucking based” – James, 2014

    “Not that rF2 is bad, but AC is just that far ahead of everything else atm.” – James, 2014

    “AC is a dumbed-down scam” – James, 2015

    If you want to prove your claims and attempt some actual journalism the solution is very simple.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. Well, I find driving in AC significantly harder than in Automibilista, especially how it handles on the limit. AC is somewhat playful, there’s abit of uncertainty how the car would behave and react – and I think this sounds closer to reality, despite being abit frustrating. In automobilista, the cars react the same way, snap in the same way in the same corners – its not a canned effect, but it sounds like it, and once you learn all these points on track and what the car would do there, you can run on the limit lap after lap… well, it does feel quite empowering and fun, thats for sure.

    And that thing about simulation value is getting stupid… Raceroom should then definelty be arcade, and RACE 07 would get into the territory of mario kart…

    Liked by 2 people

  9. I’d respect his opinions if he wouldn’t be just a typical, several seconds per lap out of pace GT-racer without the knowledge of physics nor driving. Now he seems like a little kid who tried to be a smart-ass without any actual knowledge to back up his words.

    Good partner for James though.

    Liked by 2 people

  10. “On a side note, I’m trying out the Mercedes SLS, a car known for being bat shit fucking crazy and spinning in circles on corners, and I’m finding that impossible to accomplish without the handbrake.”

    I dunno, maybe try turning off traction control? I just fired up AC, loaded the street SLS @Imola, default setup, warm tires, and proceeded to do a 360 in 3rd gear at 70-80mph with little effort.

    Liked by 1 person

      1. You have the car control of a potato. Also, Towler’s video was sarcastic in itself. He used like 80% grip, lol.

        Like

        1. I’m not sure why I would be trying to show off car control in a video demonstrating that you can generate wheelspin coming out of corners without using the handbrake.

          Like

            1. I haven’t seen anyone suggest that you can’t get wheelspin in Burnout Revenge, but if you feel the need to test a claim that no one’s made then knock yourself out.

              Like

    1. And something from a few builds ago by one of the best simracers on the planet (you name the sim). Yes, the title is sarcastic:

      Like

      1. Yeah, LaFerrari is the bitch. My best time @Nordschleife is a 6:36 (tire model 4), but i doubt that i can repeat it with tire model 7 and read it´s even more of a bitch with that.

        Like

  11. While you have road/street cars in a game with racing cars you will never have anything resembling accurate physics.Road/street cars understeer horribly so they do not kill their occupants.Race cars tend to have very slight understeer.
    A few simulation nerds want actual simulation in drivng games.No harm in moving towards that direction but my guess is you would end up with a dry old game that few would enjoy.

    Like

    1. You know you can change the default setup in your race car and make it more oversteery? If you don’t know what you’re doing, then use the Setup Market App in AC and download a qualifying or race setup, for sure it will be more difficult to handle the car than in its default setup, that is if you want to go fast, otherwise remain with the default setup and tell everyone this game has no simulation value because you can’t push the car fast enough on default. smh

      Tip to correct understeer: reduce steering and throttle in the corner. Or disable TC so that the car turns better in the corner, especially a car like the road car Merc SLS which on TC understeers if you push it too much in corners.

      Like

  12. JZStudios you are a troll or/and idiot.
    You obviously didn’t understand what Stefano meant by 1990 and 2016 the physics comment. Everyone knows that the physics haven’t changed.
    However the methods of transferring realistic physics model to consumer PC has changed! It’s constantly ongoing process of compromises. Every modern PC sim is a proof of that. Your claim that stefano lied is a blatant lie. The end.

    The fact that you didn’t get it shows you really are an idiot or a blatant troll.

    In addition to that you came up with one of the most least original physics issues descriptions ever: “underster”.
    At least other people come up with something like “x car understeer under throttle”, “x car has too longitudinal grip”. “x car oversteers on throttle lift off”.
    However you came with “AC has underster issue”. That must be the least quantitative description of an issue. The fact that you didn’t want to explain or “debug” your issue, that is the reason why you get your responses.

    Also the fact that you even came to continue to post lies on PRC is a proof that you are into sim wars, opposite of what you claim (another lie).

    Like

    1. Forza is a simcade. Even pCars has way more complex physics and much better FFB.
      Forza has been dumbed down since Forza 4 many times and I am talking about the underlying physics model that has been dumbed down, not just how driving “feels”.

      Like

      1. I played Forza 4 with a controller and Forza 5 with controller and changed to the TX-wheel after app. 100 hours. Both are simcade, but Forza 5 & 6 are just not matching RL. In a Forza-GT3-car you have to break more early to get around a corner, but after it it´s accelerating so fast that the lap times probably can fit. That´s why on this Nürburgring-RL-vs-Forza-Video from last year they (Microsoft) can´t show more than a few seconds in comparison. The pace isn´t matching at all, even with maybe about the same lap times.

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  13. Regarding the tire model of Assetto Corsa, the longitudinal grip values of the S curves are represented by an oscillating grip factor in rear grip of the tires. The coercive force of the tires produces frictional cohesion between the tires and the asphalt. The slope of the Z value determines how much gravitational input should go into the tire physics below a certain speed. In the physics data, the Y axis value correlates with the dynamic friction of the physics model. This causes understeer in the physics model, which severally hinders the simulation value of the game.

    Like

      1. The information I posted is completely valid as it highlights the problems with Assetto Corsa’s simulation value which can easily be fixed. Kunos only needs to correct the Z-slope interval value of the negative interger to replicate the airflow friction of the tires. This will add more realistic understeer and more simulation value to the game.

        Like

            1. Man everybody knows that you’re the same person. If anything you convince people that the term “simulation value” is completely subjective and can mean whatever you want it to.

              Like

  14. “The cars are indeed significantly easier to drive compared to the Early Access version of Assetto Corsa, which is obviously a step in the wrong direction considering the overall goal of a racing simulator.”

    That’s definitely a fallacy, that cars should be harder to drive the closer they get to representing reality.

    Most people I’ve spoken to who’ve driven track day cars say its much easier than almost all sims to drive in real life. Across the board with most simulations of anything from airplanes to cars or trains or whatever real operators repeatedly say that the sims are harder than real life, not easier.

    This is a bit of rote philosophy from the 90s and early 00s when men were men and pixels were as big as their balls.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. As someone who tracks and who is fast both IRL and in the sim (unlike most people who are shit at one, or more often than not both), AC is definitely on the easy side.

      Like

      1. Show us your videos of driving in real life and your videos driving on AC. Then we can compare what felt like hard and what felt like easy.

        Like

  15. Meanwhile I have to say that these “is that realistic or not” discussions are only annoying. Neither James nor the Reader Submission’s author nor all comment writers nor me know enough about car physics to judge about them. Nobody of us has driven enough cars and has the needed expertise. Even the game makers only can interprete what driving realism should feel like.

    You are only playing a fucking video game. If you want to criticize Assettto Corsa write about something like the AI because that’s obvious shit.

    Like

  16. The AC spastic brigade has arrived. With their leader Eleanor96 (What kind of gay name is that anyway?) liking each of their posts. Where’s that other spastic Browninja97? Little kids shouldn’t be allowed to go to the internet unattended by their parents.

    Like

      1. I’m not Hex, you moron. Are you that obsessed with him that you really think that every post that doesn’t suck AC’s dick was made by him?

        Like

        1. You’re anonymous, if you don’t want to be assumed to be hex, get a real name. Or at least an original opinion.

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              1. You should tell that yourself. Your eyes are so covered in Stefano and Marco’s sperm that you can’t even see the mess that game is in.

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                1. Whatever, but is our “mess”. You don’t have to play it. If you don’t like the game, spend more time playing your favorite game than time talking about a game you don’t like.

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                  1. You tell me to go play “my” game, but are here not playing “yours” aswell. Are you really that retarded? Come on.

                    Like

                    1. I play “my” game and I talk about “my” game. But you don’t see me talking non-stop and complaining all the time about games I don’t like or don’t consider good. Yet you guys are here all the time talking about a game you don’t like and think isn’t good or doesn’t have simulation value. So my question is, why do you spend so much time talking about this type of game if you have a better game that you like and consider more realistic? Seems logical that you’d spend more time talking and playing a game you like, than for a game you don’t.

                      Like

  17. Wait, is he talking about the GT3 SLS or the street version? Either way, I drive the SLS regularly. It spins it’s rear wheels, but once it starts understeering, you can’t really do much to break the rear loose unless you slow down and punch it hard. That was my observation at least.

    Like

  18. Still seeing a lot of subjectivity on this topic, and pretty much no ‘relevant, irrefutable, undeniable’ (or w/e the hell I said in Sev’s article) data on the matter.

    Although this time you did include the setup at least, half of what’s needed if I was still interested in testing this.

    But hey, it’s a scapegoat to get people to forget about the fabricated Turn10 rumor, ain’t that right?

    Like

  19. Just drove few hours with AC. It’s much better than it was year ago. And it’s a great simulator, no doubt about that.

    Like

  20. Been enjoying AC recently(jumped on to check out SRS), yeah its on the easy side for sure, but Ive dropped trying to get a full race sim outta of it like AMS or rf2, and just drive, Ive actually managed to get half decent races out of AI, and find half decent drivers on the nords in MP to cruise with,adn performance with AI has improved so can have full grid now no worries(no micro stutters),

    It still has a way to go, and still alot of its features are still bottom of the pack (AI/netcode/setups) but its actually far more of a playable sim now, and ive been enjoying last few days, even bought last 2 DLC packs.

    Without a doubt though its on the easier side of things, in some gt3’s I found I was almost full steering lock on every corner, simply because I could keep turning the wheel without any loss of grip,overall heating improved, but I/m/o are still ridiculously similar regardless of setup/driving style,adn even though theres a few more MP players ( really not that much more in my time zone than other sims) the overall quality is fairly low compared to the other sims, Im a backmarker/mid fielder on a good day, but find myself front of pack simply through attrition, and things I haven’t seen in my sims for a while is outright “trolls” and deliberate “wreckers”, but overall package with all DLC included is without a dougbt worth a purchase for any one with a wheel.

    I still have AMS and rf2 for when I mean buisness.

    Like

    1. Just post one of your videos where the more you turn the steering wheel in corner after corner nothing happens to the car or tyres.
      I don’t believe any word you said in your post above, but maybe you can prove yourself with a video, so it goes beyond just typed words.

      Like

    2. Look at this professional driver turning the steering wheel a lot and spinning the car and catching the tyres on fire the more he turns.

      Oh ok.. apparently it didn’t happen like Hash was saying it was supposed to happen in AC.
      But pls dude, post a video of gameplay with all the necessary apps on screen, then we can see what happens to the car/tyres as you drive. And also say if you used default or custom setup.

      Like

    3. The big problem is certain combos allow you to drive however you want. I think something is up with the pressure and heating relationship.

      Pcars also has this problem, though to be honest I’m finding the latest version pretty enjoyable. It has improved fairly significantly, though it’s still way too easy to drive off line/on the grass and I don’t see or feel any flat spotting or big penalty from debris pickups. Tyres go from enjoyable cold-warm transition to this ideal range that you have to really fight to overheat. Maybe it’s just the combos I’ve been driving.

      Both titles suffer from this. I’m hoping kunos plans to dial in their heating to be more dynamic, as it seems to be able to do this with the right combinations. Certain combos feel pretty nice and also offer a challenge, others are really grippy but also hard to drive consistently lap after lap.

      Pcars is what it is. There’s some interesting racing experiences inside, but certain aspects of the realism are never going to be improved. It’s a shame, because it’s mostly stuff that could be fixed or at least improved upon by modders. MP is in a much worse state than AC, though that’s partly due to modding. idk about the netcode.

      Iracing has some crazy curves, I think they often dial in their model just to fuck with people and make the racing interesting. The ovals can be pretty boring compared to rf2. Some laps can feel and result in identical times a little too easily imo…until you hit some weird sharp angle in the grip/heat curve.

      rf2 and ams have good dynamics, it makes the racing more interesting. rf2 needs debris pickup though.

      Like

  21. Just to make pee on your stupid argument grave. This video is matching by doing 5 cuts:

    Try this with fucking iRacing or rF2.

    Like

      1. There is only one Nordschleife and one AC-conversion for rF2, which i call the only real track for rF2. Sebring and Oulten mod is nice, but the rest just sucks compare to the laserscanned tracks. All other Nordschleife-Mods are totally different tracks as well as the other official tracks compare to the laserscanned versions. rF2 is just dead with mediocre physics compare to AC, without car licenses and laserscanned tracks.

        Like

        1. Only when the comparison video is AC vs real life and AC vs rf2. Then the comparison has no value. When iracing or rf2 comparisons against each other or against real life, we can treat them as the holy video of undeniable truth and simulation value.

          Liked by 1 person

    1. what you expect form a bunch of upstart young cunts whos experience of cars involves their “mom” and ex forza/console players coming for the mad drifts brah in 60fps, the “vocal” AC community reminds me of the yank ricer scene.

      Like

      1. Oh, but you guys aren’t as mature as you want people to think. A simple proof of that is that those who hate or dislike Assetto Corsa can’t get enough of it and the community of this game. Why do you have to interact with the kids and the mad drifters if you think that of them? You guys keep coming and talking about AC and people from this community every day.
        I thought someone who posses the extraordinary maturity of people who don’t play AC were more intelligent than to talk to us kids. But you guys keep interacting with us.
        There are a bunch of games I don’t like or don’t play, but you don’t see me go to their forums daily and talk shit of the community or of the games. Where is your maturity? Do you feel more mature when you have to use expressions like “a bunch of upstart young cunts”? Maybe that was a thing of the 19th century, but we are now on the 21st, but your mentality remained two centuries behind.

        Like

          1. Cool, looking forward to see your gameplay video of the things you think are wrong in the simulation. That can be more productive than a thousand words, even though it will still generate discussion, but that kind of discussion can be more objective than just what we write based on the memory from the last time we played the sim. As a proper gameplay video can clear thoughts and opinions.

            Like

    1. So staff from Kunos are now descending to a 4chan level of behaviour online and towards their own clients? Fantastic…

      Like

  22. By coincidence this week, I had decided I was going to quit racing in AC because I was tired of fighting with the understeer.

    Obviously you can overcome it with stupid setups, but then the car just becomes undrivable. I may persevere a little more as I have invested quite a bit of time in the game and have friends in the league I run in etc. I hate giving up on stuff.

    However, i’m definitely not buying anything else from kunos as I don’t like the way Stefano attacks his customers (like JZ) as if anybody other than himsrlf has enough knowledge to have an opinion. To me it is fairly obvious who is really lacking any credibility.

    I just don’t believe real “drivers” cars understeer to that degree. Lord knows why engineers bothered moving engines backwards if actually understeer was best after all.

    It’s almost as if they know there is a huge great flaw in the engine and get super defensive and attack anybody who gets close to exposing it. Or perhaps Stefano has a massive ego that needs maintaining?

    Anyway, if I do eventually manage to create a nice balanced setup after years of zero success (and which seems easily done in AMS and RF2), I will report back.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. You forgot to login JZStudios. What you posted there is basically the same words, arguments, and speech JZStudios made in this article and in the AC forums. So I have confidence to know is you.

      But why don’t you create a video where we see your understeer, and see what made you understeer and then we can tell you what you did wrong.

      Like

      1. Playing dirty already I see. No not JZ i’m afraid (well you probably knew that anyway). First post as it happens (now second).

        All just my observations i’m afraid. I don’t pretend to know it all, and as I said I will report back if I think I have been unfair.

        You on the other hand are using classic shilling tactics. First you try and discredit me by saying i’m JZ. Then you use the classic “show me some evidence” (So I can discredit you either way) line. I don’t think so.

        How many other companies do you have on your books? Probably just Kunos. Your not very good 🙂

        Like

        1. Ok you’re not JZ. But have you actually read JZ’s posts in the thread http://www.assettocorsa.net/forum/index.php?threads/are-you-ready-for-forza.32498/ to see what lead to more people, including stefano, to ask JZ to expand and give more insightful answers. But he just links to a lengthy video and makes people in AC community and Stefano to fish for things from that video. Because JZ wasn’t capable of telling exactly what is wrong in AC, he just generalized that the simulation in AC is wrong because he understeers when driving. No shit, a lot of cars understeer if you don’t take the corner in a race track properly, especially on default setup which isn’t made to kill you, but is actually a safe setup for the car. Cars in general are safe-easy, but if you set them up for a race/qualifying, then in the hands of an experienced driver will be overkill, as he’ll lose control in many corners.

          Liked by 1 person

            1. Doesn’t matter if JZ or someone else, you said and have the same arguments. So doesn’t matter from which person actually came from. But just like JZ, you guys don’t want to prove yourselves of the things you say. You expect everyone to believe that AC is wrong because you experienced understeer in the game. Well, cars in real life have understeer. Until you make a proper comparison or analysis, we don’t know if the understeer you’re talking about is wrong or realistic for the car, setup, and driving style.

              Like

              1. I don’t want everybody to believe AC is wrong. I’m just stating my experience which seems to match that of at least one other person.

                Of course if I could be bothered to show you a video of understeer on entry to corner you’d just say I went in too hard. And if I showed you push understeer you’d say I’d got on the power too early. Then there is the setup that I hadn’t got right or that the real car understeers to save rich people killing themselves etc. Then there’s the videos that may or may not be genuine. There are a million ways to discredit my experience and on top of that you are giving me the burden of proof. I know it would likely be a witch burning.

                So if its ok with you i will just state my experience and leave it at that. No probs if other people feel differently.

                Like

                1. Ok, but you’ll need to discover yourself why you’re creating the understeer. There’s so much the car can turn and accelerate/coast at the same time as turning. Understeer happens in real life, and is a matter of setup and driving style. And understeer is actually a problem in real life, as is oversteer, so you need to setup the car or adjust your driving style.

                  Like

    2. If you have no skills to create a proper setup please try ones created by aliens. Those will turn well.
      Either way you talk like you haven’t tried pCars default setups if you think AC has “understeer issue”.

      Like

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