“With Camber at Zero, You Will Win Zero!”

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So throughout the lifespan of Project CARS, sim racing message boards far and wide have been sprinkled with rumors of exploits, inaccuracies, and general stupidity on behalf of the team at Slightly Mad Studios, and to be honest, I’ve always sort of taken them at face value. During my own free time with the game, I’ve known that it was good for a laugh, or an introduction into the world of sim racing – but not much else – and I can’t say I’ve ever done my homework on the numerous issues within the simulator. Yep, you caught me. If someone sent us in a Reader Submission discussing something that was absolutely broken inside Project CARS, and backed it up with a video or another user reporting the same problems on the official forums, I pretty much accepted it as fact.

And after a while, it became increasingly apparent that Project CARS was not as advertised – a game slapped together with the remaining assets of Shift 2 Unleashed, some freelance work when it was required, and fueled by a marketing campaign placing sales figures well above customer satisfaction. The only sim racers praising this game weren’t really sim racers at all, but rather recent converts, temporarily yanked away from Need for Speed and convinced Project CARS was Jesus on Blu-Ray due to the fact that no other worthwhile racing game was available on their console of choice. As the glitches and bug reports piled up, you could practically invent a problem out of thin air to troll the developers on their own forums, and another user would report that same problem within a day or so – completely serious.

But the more I see Project CARS shills continue to pop up in our comments section, hell-bent on defending this broken piece of software for reasons only our Lord and Savior understands, I figured it was time to dive into the game myself and put one of the most popular exploits to the test; an exploit that would never work in the real world because you’d destroy the four pieces of rubber which connect the car to planet earth. I’m talking about the Zero Camber Exploit, a setup glitch where setting your camber values to the absolute minimum allowed is the be-all, end-all way to improve your car’s performance. Said to eradicate up to two seconds off your lap times, driving a top level race car on racing slicks using little to no camber would basically be an easy way to end your weekend in real life, yet in Project CARS, it supposedly acts as free speed at no additional cost. If this exploit is still present in the current build of the game, not only does it completely shoot down the idea that Project CARS has any simulation value whatsoever, it also proves Slightly Mad Studios simply doesn’t care about what their game allegedly represents – people have been reporting this bug since the game’s release, and instead, they’ve continued to release packs of downloadable content, as well as announce the sequel to Project CARS.

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I obviously need a way to test this in a fair and legitimate environment, to ensure the readers of PRC.net are subjected to nothing but the most accurate of results from my hot-lapping sessions.

I’ll be using the Ford Falcon FG from the Game of the Year Edition package, a vehicle most of our Australian readers will recognize from its time spent on the V8 SuperCars circuit. The reason I’m using such a difficult car for this experiment, is because I’m comfortable driving V8 SuperCars across a wide variety of modern simulators, and in theory, any handling oddities an exploit setup produces should be magnified in an already unstable car. Open Wheel cars, even with shitty setup values, can be driven through their issues thanks to their light weight and crazy amounts of downforce. A 600+ horsepower sedan should struggle if you don’t get the setup right, or throw ridiculous numbers into the mix. So basically, I’m trying to let Project CARS win in this situation, and prove that camber ISN’T broken as frustrated sim racers claim it is.

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For the first run at each of the three tracks I intend to make laps at – Silverstone International, Brands Hatch, and Imola, all tracks I’m familiar with from Assetto Corsa – I’ll be using the bone stock setup bundled with the Ford Falcon FG. The only tweak made will be to the steering ratio, ensuring I’m as comfortable with the car as possible at any given time. Personally, I use 18:1 across every single simulator I’ve currently got installed, but this setting is a user preference thing, and has absolutely no effect on how the car performs. Aspects of the setup that do, such as the tires, fuel, and even weather, will remain uniform. Soft compound slicks will be used in every session, I’ll ensure the weather doesn’t change, and to make sure I’m not bending over backwards to purposely beat the default setup with the exploit setup, all of the sessions using the default setup will be driven first.

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The Ford Falcon FG is a vehicle I find to be quite decent compared to the rest of the offerings available in Project CARS. This is actually common in this game; some cars are good, others are awful, and I’m happy to report that the Falcon FG falls into the good category. It doesn’t have the top end torque, nor is it as darty as the Holden Commodore found in Reiza’s Automobilista, but those jumping from the Commodore to the Falcon will feel a sense of familiarity with both cars. The same amount of throttle control is required on corner exit, the same amount of body roll is exhibited, and the same overall driving techniques can be carried from one simulator, to the other. I personally believe the Falcon FG accelerates a bit quicker, yet doesn’t take kerbs as well as the Commodore, but this is a car many sim fans would be happy with if you could yank it right out of Project CARS, and shove it into a competitor’s title such as Assetto Corsa or rFactor 2. Prior to the experiment taking off, I ran some shakedown laps at Zolder and Donnington to familiarize myself with the default setup, and it was basically like I’d fired up the Super V8 in Stock Car Extreme, and was subjected to driving somebody else’s setup other than my own.

Oh, and it sounded almost the same.

Er… Let’s not get into that.

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Silverstone

The International layout of Silverstone kicks all sorts of ass, and that was my first stop on this mini-tour of Assetto Corsa tracks in Project CARS. The sixty three second circuit throws all sorts of corners and braking zones at you, segments which the Falcon FG handled fairly well with the default setup, but on exit could really bite you if you weren’t careful with the throttle. The final three corners in particular, the car really suffered, and I felt like I couldn’t get everything out of the Falcon that I needed to. The default camber values made the first sector an absolute breeze; giving me a neutral car that was a pleasure to drive.

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Throwing the exploit camber values into the mix tightened up the car in many areas of the track, which took a few laps to get used to. The first sector, a portion of the track where the car felt at its best, was no longer a breeze, and instead the Falcon plowed basically everywhere. I had to really adjust my turn-in points and steer the car by matting the throttle and violently throwing my weight around, but the car responded extremely well to this aggressive driving style – in fact, a little too well. However, I could get on the throttle with ease during the final three corners, carelessly enough to the point where on my fastest lap, I was sideways out of the final turn and able to hold it there for an extended period of time. It looked cool as fuck, but the shitty replays in Project CARS prevented me from capturing my driving in all its glory. Once I adapted to the driving style the bullshit camber values required, the car essentially had more grip everywhere, and to my surprise wasn’t chewing through the tires as quickly, either.

I gained three tenths of a second using the exploit camber setup, and felt like I wasn’t cooking the left front as much as I had been using the default setup.

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Brands Hatch

So I take things to the full layout of Brands Hatch, and I’ll be honest, this track was a challenge in the Falcon FG. The crazy elevation changes, low speed corners, and blind turns were a lot for this car to handle, and I’ll give the boys at Slightly Mad Studios credit here – not only was the car fun as hell to drive with the default setup, this track is beautiful one of the best in Project CARS. However, a fun car to drive meant I was struggling to get the power down on exit out of some of the slower corners, and I really had to feather the throttle in the third sector. If I were to take the default setup into an online event, I’d immediately be deep into the garage menu working on sway bar adjustments; it was just a bit too twitchy for my liking. Oh, and my left front was suffering from major abuse.

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I fucking flew with the bullshit camber setup, chopping off half a second from my previous time set with the default values. The twitchy tenancies of the Falcon had been eradicated, and if I wanted to adjust the turning radius in the middle of a corner, I simply had to stab the throttle. Tire wear was drastically reduced, as were both the oversteer and understeer I’d been fighting at various points on the track. The speeds I had been reaching in the long straight sections were enormous, and the first few laps were spent adjusting my braking points; I was coming into braking zones way too hot compared to the laps I’d run earlier in the day with the stock setup. Again, these broken camber values took a twitchy, difficult car that was manageable in the hands of an experienced driver, and neutralized it to the point where I would have both qualified and placed well in an rFactor 2 GTE race.

Yeah, that’s uh… Not right…

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Imola

Our last stop is at Imola, and this is a track I’ve been extremely successful at, both in online races, as well as leaderboard hot-lapping. I own the track record here at Race2Play on the historic layout using the mid-80’s Brazilian Stock Cars, I won here a few weekends ago in modern Brazilian Touring Cars, and I once held the RSR Leaderboard record here in several different GT cars within the Assetto Corsa platform. I honestly don’t even like the track, and don’t care for it’s historical significance in Formula One, but like Interlagos, I seem to always do well here.

The stock setup in the Falcon was fucking awful at this place. It could kind of jump kerbs, but it was a dice roll on what worked, and what would loop the car. The crazy direction changes consistently caused the car to break loose, and that massive uphill section in sector two.. Yeah, it was a bit of a clusterfuck. Even with the steering ratio adjustment, and being extra careful with the throttle, it just didn’t fucking work. If a buddy of mine sent me this setup in something like Stock Car Extreme and asked me to drive it and make improvements, I’d just be like “no.” Tire wear was fine, though, and I’ll attribute that to the various types of corners thrown at me during each lap.

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So the exploit setup goes in, and oh shit am I ever fucking tearing up the place. All handling issues have been rectified, it  understeers a bit on exit after the first two chicanes instead of getting mad loose, and it’s actually hitting the chip before the braking zone into Tamburello. That’s right, this car was clocking out at 282 km/h with room to spare on a hotlap – speeds bigger than any GT3 car in Assetto Corsa can hit here. If I allowed myself to fuck with the final drive, I was hitting 290 km/h no problem. It was absolutely stupid how stable and planted this car was, and keep in mind – nothing has been changed aside from completely messing up the camber values to a number nobody in their right mind would ever run anywhere.

I clocked in at a 1:42.571, nearly a full second faster than my time with the default setup, and half a second faster than every single GT3 car on the RSR Leaderboards in Assetto Corsa. In real life, V8 SuperCars are about six seconds slower than GT3 entries around Bathurst. Something is definitely wrong here. Nonsensical camber values should not produce a Ford Falcon FG that would blow away a whole bunch of GT3 cars. The whole scenario reminds me of that kid in elementary who wrote on the bathroom stall “if you can piss above this line, the local fire department wants you.” Well, the Ford Falcon FG with broken camber values just went and pissed on the motherfucking roof.

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Again, I come to the point in another Project CARS article where I’m supposed to summarize the tomfoolery I’ve just experienced. And all I can say is “this shit is fucking whack.” You’re retarded if you defend this game and claim it’s some sort of authentic simulator. I booted up the game, threw in the exploit setup, and was rewarded with an infinitely quicker race car, granting me anywhere from a few tenths on track, to almost an entire second, for absolutely no reason other than the game is demonstrably broken. How did guys like Rene Rast, Nic Hamilton, and Ben Collins willingly support this? Earlier in the week, I outlined how a setup adjustment in rFactor 2 produced the exact same result on the physical track, down to the exact tenth of a second I expected to pick up. Here? Absolutely random numbers produced a nonsensical advantage that no amount of studying vehicle dynamics could lead you to making on your own.

I feel bad for those trying to run legitimately organized leagues on this platform. Your entire process of building setups, testing, and fine-tuning just got blown wide open. Camber is 100% broken, and there’s probably other exploits people haven’t found yet because that’s the kind of quality you receive with games created by Slightly Mad Studios. I’d be fucking pissed if I was in any sort of proper league for Project CARS, as there is essentially no way to remain competitive by doing things the legit way.

Yes, you fucking shills, there is a serious problem with Project CARS. In fact, there are many problems with this game. This is the only one I’ve bothered to sit down and confirm. Would you like me to do more, or should I wait for the disaster that will be Project CARS 2?

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112 thoughts on ““With Camber at Zero, You Will Win Zero!”

      1. I like that you appreciate our V8SC’s for what they are, i enjoyed you’re thoughts on them mate
        Id love to see you tackle the mountain in one.

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  1. I hereby endorse this message. Sorry thing is I was that sorry sap fucking endlessly with my setup, trying to place better during league races. Then I discovered this shit at the end of the season when the motherfucken league winner gave me his setup. I input said setup and take to the track for a heads up race. Holy fucken shit, that cocksucker can not drive for shit, 10 lap race I win by 12 seconds. So fuck all you Shilltards and fuck you Ian Bell.
    The New Sim King

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    1. While I haven’t actually tested zero camber in GSCE, decreasing negative camber (let alone flat/0) under reasonable conditions decreases lateral grip in favor of longitudinal grip.

      I’m usually increasing negative camber at least a touch front or back in basically all sims 95% of the time and it’s usually true in real life as well.

      0 camber isn’t a reasonable setting for any real car I know of…. Well, I guess the front wheel of a reliant robin????

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      1. Even most road cars run with .5-1 degree of negative camber because of how much it helps handling. There’s no way any car, let alone a race car, would handle better with 0 degrees.

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      2. That’s what I expect as well, but it’d be nice to see the actual effect on laptimes from James, and commentary on how the tires last.

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    2. The virtual car behaves like a real car should. You know, gMotor2 magic.

      I run negative cambers all the time for desperate time attacks in qualifying, but there is no way in hell the tires would last 40 laps (Or hell, even 15) running with that setup in a race.

      I remember a race I did in 2009, I forgot to change setup between qualyfing and race (We had “parc fermé” rules in rF1 and I was one of the last drivers to end the session so I ran out of time) and had to race with the camber close to -3 for 50 laps at Varano de Melegari, a small italian track. I manage to finish the race without pitting for tires, but I crossed the finish line with both front tires blown up 2 laps earlier. I also crashed into the leader on his last lap and he lost the race because of me, oh well. He was a dick anyway. Lol

      Oh the memories..

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  2. Good article James, theres very hushed talk around that there are secret settings in PC that can shave collective huge times off laps, many PC forum moderators and inner circle use them.
    There is a very hush inner circle who in return for favours and privileges have pledged themselves as attack dogs, the core of that group is the moderators on PC forum.

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  3. good point, but are 3 tenth of a second really an undeniable proof? Would have wondered more if you were at least 2 or 3 seconds faster as with the default setup => otherwise you must be driving constantly like a robot to be able to compare the times by thenths of a second, Maybe the best would be to let a single AI run the laps with different setups (dont really know if this is even possible though), would it also be faster with the exploit or clock the same time every time in despite of any setup changes? In any case things like this suck no question, pick up the phone force the dev into a corner bombard him with questions and give us a bigger drama 😀

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    1. Well 3 tenths of a second faster is absolutely proof, as he shouldn’t even be 1 tenth faster with the zero camber setup, he should be slower.

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    2. 3 tenths-1 full second is definitely proof. Under no circumstances in real life would anyone be stupid enough to send a driver out on 0 camber. In fact, I’m pretty sure if they caught you do it or admitted to doing it after an accident you would be asked by senior track officials to not come back again.

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      1. camber is not exactly 0, it changes while driving. Depending how the suspensions are built, but most race cars would give you negative camber during driving, even if on paper you set it to 0º.

        But here for James, I think he could have improved his default setup lap time. Did he only do one lap with each setup or he took the best time out of 3-5 laps, as usually the first lap you’re not going to be the fastest, then you switch to a different setup, even with 0º, and you’re more used to the track than in your first lap, with whatever setup.

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          1. it appears that the Falcon’s front camber only goes to .09 if it traveled to zero like some other cars you would be 2 seconds faster. Try the openwheel cars its night and day difference.

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        1. I don’t think so. In the middle of a corner, a tyre set flat at rest (0 camber) is not going to be in good shape with regards to contact patch. The inner tyre is large immaterial, it has no power to override the negative effects of 0 camber effectively becoming positive camber on the outer tyre in a corner.

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    3. In a 60 second lap, if you can’t keep your laptimes within a tenth or two when hotlapping, you’re doing it wrong. To gain 3 tenths on a short lap magically after trying hard on a default setup is 100% proof.

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    4. yeah, you don’t know James. he can run like, 50 laps within tenths of each other, with the only issue being tire life.

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    5. “you must be driving constantly like a robot to be able to compare the times by tenths of a second”

      Here’s my lap readouts from Need for Speed Underground a few minutes ago. Even when I’m just fucking around, I’m fighting over basically inches on track, so imagine what happens when I’m in a hardcore title doing research for PRC.

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  4. It’s already been confirmed that PCars is simcade garbage, but the shills will keep pretending that there’s no bugs and exploits in their precious sim. I wouldn’t be surprised if Ian Bell came back to this site with his group of shills to spew more bullshit.

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    1. You want a cookie?

      Pcars is a bad sim acording to alot of people, but hate for any kind of software is unreasonable. Example: you don’t like windows, you install linux and live a happy life ever after. Why the fucking need to tell someone that their choice of software is bad? Who gives a shit? Why waste energy on hate or are you just insecure in your own choices?

      You don’t like it, you use something else and move on like every god damn normal person on this planet.

      Disclamer: i don’t own any of the fucking sims this blog writes about.

      Fuck.

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      1. The issue wouldn’t be this large if it wasn’t for the shills. The game was plague with a massive number of bugs at release, and as people pointed this out on the official PCars forum, the shills got angry, and the mod staff started censoring people. SMS only have themselves to blame for the poor reputation that PCars has.

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  5. Good analysis, dude. This is why I keep returning to this site and why I take advice from PRC regarding car setup. Last night I did a race with some friends in Race 07 and ran a setup derived from what I’ve learned here. Of course my very good friend (and eternal on-track adversary) ran faster than me, but this time I put up more of a fight.

    I keep wondering how difficult or easy it is to fix such bugs.

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  6. It’s something you’d expect out of some small team’s F2P racer running a custom game engine (or Unity) made up out of a spaghetti-like mess where one change hits another completely unrelated variable. But if it was F2P, everybody but the ones kissing up enough to get made forum mods and official streamers-youtubers would pressure them and it would get fixed because players = survival.

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  7. It could be that the FG is running a carcass derived from pre-patch 7 gt3 model, for some very odd reason. If I were closer to my PC, would blow tire.rg open to check. But even if it is on later model, the effect of camber on lateral grip, heating and wear is rather low.

    I think you should dig into the differential model, I’m certain that you’d find it very amusing. It’s quite simplified, works quite OK on fwd and rwd cars most of the time, but 4wds are “quite not there” for obvious reasons.
    Intentional dumbing down of flat-spotting, tire heating effect on grip and wear would be nice subjects too, but those I can understand, because general public can’t drive nor brake.

    ~Realistic Shill

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    1. Dear Realistic Shill, if you dare venture onto the track yourself and find that your hopelessly off the pace (not due to your lack of driving ability) then pop open that garage menu and zero out that camber and watch 2seconds evaporate off your lap times on any car that will run zero chamber (ie most). Now I know that BitchBoyBell has said that the top speed was reduced for people running zero camber (like thats some kind of legitimate fix) but they did nothing for the acceleration boost it also gives you, its like running zero chamber magically reduces the weight of the car by 30%. hopefully this is all a mute point as this title should rightfully fall into obscurity (the trash) as soon as decent competition comes along for the console crowd.(there is only one reason this game sold so many copy’s, timing. No other competition to compare this garbage to) they did do a few things right but that has been eclipsed by their monumental lack of quality control. Asseta Corsa wont fair as well if they put forth a product that lacks in quality because the big boys are about to arrive or not we shall see.

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      1. Dear new sim king, hope you are well. 😀 Two seconds sounds quite bit much for any track, with any car (that goes to 0 camber) I must say that I only have had prolonged exposure only to “gt3 and gte” machinery in project cars and can only comment on those.
        Lately I’ve raced with Corvette C7.R in Watkins glen and Catalunya and there my laptimes told I was benefiting from running over 2degrees negative than -0.7 in terms of increased cornering ability.
        It may well be that SMS only bothered to apply the dirty “fix” only to gt carcasses and chose not to really fix the underlying problem in the original game, shame on them for that, shame on them indeed.

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  8. I’ll admit, I have enjoyed that car and sbrands feels better than most of the pcars tracks. Either because it is scanned or because many of the other tracks are sub-par. Bit of both?

    Really ridiculous. Good job testing exploit last, otherwise we would be hearing about ‘oh pcars ‘dynamic’ line rubbering!!!11′.

    lol

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    1. Wait damn it James, I confused myself.

      If you have the time and desire to inflict self-harm, do a quick test in reverse just to dispel the excuse before it can be made. Just one track is needed.

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  9. For once an article worth reading.

    That was an interesting read, and believable, because backed up by some comprehensible testing on your side.
    I hope you will continue to keep your personal feuds and those of others (hint -> readers submissions) out of the articles in future as well
    I’ve read some of your blog some time ago, and it was good information, then you completely lost it, but this article was a good read.

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  10. You’re not wrong about there being exploits. There certainly are.

    But I can have fun with the game for the most part, when I don’t try to go with the exploits, and I’m sorry but there’s not that many options that are that much better.

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  11. I’m playing pcars since release, usually populate the Top10 boards and I’m also in the Top list of the timetrialevents they currently run on weekends.

    The zero camber got a “fix” last year. Afaik the topspeed you gained of it has been reduced a little, but giving more grip with higher camber in corners (what should be the purpose of it) has not been improoved. There maybe a liitle little effect for very high camber settings like -3.0 and higher on some cars, but it still does not make up the speed you gain with zero camber even on a dry track on straights.

    There’s been one dude who made some small testing after the patch and it looked a little better for the moment but it but as most of the time sms could not meet expectations.

    So most of the fast guys I know still run zero camber and they are still fast.
    But better don’t get expect zero camber will make you a hero on track 😉

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    1. so they artificially fixed it by giving a top speed reduction, rather than fix the underlying simulation issue…
      and they told people this…
      and people still defend it and say it’s a sim?

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      1. The “fix” was not a “top speed reduction” this s not an arcade racer from 80s, no matter how much you shout it. What was done was increasing the rolling resistance of tire deformation with lower amount of negative camber.

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          1. no need just post pic of the patch seven change log its right at the top. “Neutralized the top speed advantage of running zero camber on many tires”

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  12. Good article James, on a serious note you’ve had a few very informative and good articles of late, i even liked your bungy chord tip, how about having a ‘helpful tip of the week’ for the site, not asking you to go lame, just thinking it would be good if this site gave a bit back to the community not just expose it and tear it down, which is good too don’t get me wrong lol.

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    1. Just wait till the next article where he resumes his indiegogo campaign against Reiza and makes a bunch of self-flattering comments about himself along the way.

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  13. I´ve to admit, i was wrong on this and was more into tweaking other settings to settle the car, which are working as supposed, like in rF2. But the camber-trick is maybe just the (modified) isiMotor 2 engine problem in pCars (Raceroom, Automobilista…), which can´t handle tire deformation.

    And still don´t get into my head, why minus camber is working well in RL. In a corner you get the outer two tires better on the ground, but the inner two have less traction and most corners are not so tight that the weight is just on the outer tires. And when the car shift the weight to the other side, high camber must be distracting or just on straights from a pure logical thinking. And when it starts to rain this must suck even with rain tires.

    Maybe besides rF2 all camber physics in all sims are not trustworthy because tire deformation physics are to complex in RL, depending to much on the tire model, pressure and temps as well as suspension, caster and toe. It´s bad to have an exploit like this and other titles just don´t give you that much options regarding camber. AC has still a camber-problem and normally i keep the camber at default or even reducing it in the back. At least one of these japanese cars have even positive camber by default.

    Like i said before: rF2 has probably the best tire physics, but sucks at other subjects like ABS, traction control differential, graphics and track accuracy. Breaking in rF2 is far to easy, with or without ABS, and on throttle the diff is technically in the 80s with no simulation value.

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    1. “maybe just the (modified) isiMotor 2 engine problem in pCars (Raceroom, Automobilista…), which can´t handle tire deformation.”

      What are you talking about? Pcars is supposed to have a entirely self made “tyre mode” SETA,WITH FULL TYRE DEFORMATION, that they plugged in,and was heavily touted in the marketing to solve and inprove everything on the standard tyre model that came with RF1 engin , AMS camber works well, raceroom appears to too without really testing, dont drag them down to this massive pcars fundamentally flawed issue please.

      “Maybe besides rF2 all camber physics in all sims are not trustworthy because tire deformation physics are to complex in RL”

      No, AC has/had some issues with camber but they seem to be actively addressing it (albeit slowly),and tbh pales in comparrsion to this shocker, stop attaching issues that dont exist in these other sims to cover how wrong you were.

      Cough) http://www.wmdportal.com/projectnews/inside-project-cars-seta-tire-model/

      Ive said since day one this model is pure marketing, and just appears made up for the most part.

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      1. Agreed, I definitely recall the hype behind their physical model. Lots of us reminded people that a physical model can easily be worse than empirical, it’s only as good as the engineering and data, it doesn’t magically fix all shortcoming and maintain comparable accuracy in all situations in the best implementations, let alone the SMS hodge-podge mostly third-party bullshit they mixed together.

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    2. When you turn a corner and shift weight to the outer wheels (with some body roll, amount depending on sway bar all the way down to things like subframe bushing stiffness), the majority of the contact patch would end up on the outer half of the tyres at 0 camber.

      It’s better to have contact established on inside, as a tyre ranges around your camber setting. It doesn’t stay at 0. To actually hit zero in the middle of a corner in terms of a centered contact patch, you would need at least some negative camber to begin with and is still dependent on how you happen to take the corner on that particular lap.

      I made a really crap diagram to help explain. not sure it makes any sense though lol

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      1. Yep that would completely wreck your tyres, in extreme circumstances even suffer a major failure, possibly even riding the rims, would likely strain supension setup ways it was never designed to be strained,even with negative camber because of the extreme turns and Gs involved a tyre could ride outter badly, imagine this tyre with zero camber…

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        1. WOW, it looks like when the tire distorts its sidewall a few inches off the rim that the rim is rolling on the underside of the tread, until i watched that i never realised tyres moved that much under breaking, great clip mate, thanks for that
          Everybody should watch this vid above, even the lads who totally understand it, great vid.

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  14. PS: The simulation value of a sim like pCars i don´t measure in small things like this camber-issue. Every sim has issues and never will be like the real thing, that´s for sure and pCars is still in the 1.x phase. iRacing changed the tire model radically within a few months and how many years they do this stuff? Breaks seems still to good to be real and corner-/top-speeds not matching what i see in onboards. It´s all work in progress.

    What really caught me in pCars is the LMP1/900 class. FFB is much better than in GT-class and the physics seems quite accurate compare to onboards (same breaking spots and good matching lap-times). This Le Mans driving in a day/night cycle with changing grip conditions depending on how much shadow is on the track and certainly lacking grip in the night, the great feeling of tire wear like marbles are on the tires. René Rust certainly has something to do with this outcome and professional drivers like him are happy, when the track and graphics are accurate (Le Mans is pitch black in some areas and not many practice laps possible), breaking points and corner speeds matching. They don´t deal with cheat-exploits and don´t expect that the real car behaves exactly the same. For the physics and setups these teams have their own simulation, but probably bad in graphics.

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    1. the camber issue isn’t a “small thing.” It’s entirely 100% broken and absurd and makes the entire game worthless.

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      1. Yes, better play Dirt Rally. It doesn´t even have camber-setting. Or Raceroom without tire pressure, weather, night, other tires than slicks and so on. All titles are broken in your terms.

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          1. Never saw any camber-setting in DR and have >160 hours on my account and yes, R3E seems to have just one tire model.

            Just bought the URD PX Mod for AC and i think i can live without pCar with that:D

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              1. Damn, he must not have found the sub-menus haha.

                That kinda sucks, he’s been missing out on most of the setup feature really.

                BTW, I got SLR working with my wheel, you can unpack the data.mix and fix the assignment problems, just have to change one hex value after packaging back into .mix. There’s also a nice tool for assigning buttons and multiple controllers now t00 (also reduces input latency by removing driver arm simulation stuff). Also fixes the single axis pedal nonsense we’ve seen for years with milestone.

                I’ll try to remember to post the info. Now that I can actually test properly, I agree it’s a surprisingly good rally game.

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              2. No, because i can´t enter the advanced setup-screen. It should be button “2”, but i tried them all and nothing works with the Accuforce. But anyway, break balance, especially differential and a bit of suspension setup gets everything dialed in.

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                1. I can safely bet it doesn’t have anything to do with accuforce. You may need to manually edit the assign to a button to a button that actual exists on your controller (and the correct controller ID). Might also have a conflict or some shit.

                  Throwing in the towel and deciding accuforce is the problem so fuck it who cares about setups…. Not too legit my son.

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                  1. I don´t know and not willing to know how camber effect Rallye racing. With the differenial setup you can make any AWD-car like a Sebastian Loeb understeering car, but very planted or like a oldschool-drift-monster which only gets hit with it´s rear. And if a car doesn´t do what you want, you just take another one.

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  15. Hi James, you´re 99% correct about this one: 0 camber is the fastest way around in PCARS, which is stupid.

    The 1% you got wrong is what the exploit improves when you use it. Most of the gain does not come from better cornering or balance, but from a stupid straight line speed boost.

    With 0 camber in PCARS you don´t lose any lateral grip, you gain longitudinal grip (both traction and braking), and you get an straight line speed boost.

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  16. Try it in the “Formula C” James, it’ll gain you 1.5 to 2s for sure. The only thing that would stop it is that you’ll probably hit the rev limit so fast on the default setup you’ll miss out on the full benefits of the insane acceleration and top speed boost.

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  17. I have to play devil´s advocate for a second. PCARS setup is shit, but it isn´t any more shit than the competition. There are 2 known exploits for long time players: 0 camber and low tyre pressures.

    Overheating doesn´t have any effect so you can ask the shit out of your tyres and nothing will happen, not even for soft compounds and demanding racetracks.

    The rest is actually working nicely and may I say better than some other more serious sims: suspension, aero, gearing, diff… they work and they´re exploit free. You don´t see crap like running always the softest suspension options or minimum aero settings like in certain other established sims.

    The sweetspot is very rarely in the extremes of the bars, which is what should happen as cars allow you to tune its parts inside a window where they work. If the best option is in one extreme of the bar, it´s likely that going further would improve the car even more. That´s a great indicator of a broken part or a poorly selected range of options.

    Stuff like minimum wings will only work at LeMans, and maximum wings will only work at Monaco. Go to a mixed racetrack like Nurburgring or Watkins Glen and you´ll find that you need to use different levels in the mid part of the bar. Same for suspension settings: going extremely soft won´t work, and going super stiff won´t work either, and you can see the downsides of extreme settings easily.

    Their tyre model is utter shit and many compounds don´t work at all, but the base of the mechanical part of the car is working. They need to overhaul their tyre behaviour and heating. If they get alignment and pressure changes to have the proper effects, they´ll be OK.

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  18. “Open Wheel cars, even with shitty setup values, can be driven through their issues thanks to their light weight and crazy amounts of downforce. A 600+ horsepower sedan should struggle if you don’t get the setup right, or throw ridiculous numbers into the mix.”

    It’s funny because it’s the opposite in real life but downforce is just easy mode magic in sims.

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  19. I would like to her Mr Bells explanation on this issue, I assume he his currently working on the issues from his lair in Singapore.

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    1. Hmmmm, yes and any car in the game that allows zero camber Shilltard. As suggested earlier the formula c has a tremendous gain as well. The camber is broken period, no exceptions, none debatable, undeniably, unequivocally, indisputably and Irrefutably broken.

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      1. Oh OK I was trying to understand that last time you brought it up since I’m trying to understand it in an rFactor sense. It’s newtyp3 btw.

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  20. I waisted 6 months on force feedback and another 6 months on car settings ……… Ive lost a year to Ian Bell

    You fucking cunt !

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        1. Found this when I googled Mel. Kek literally translates to lol on World of Warcraft. When someone from the Horde side types lol in /say, members of the alliance side see kek instead. Not specific to Orcs. James.

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  21. For a split second, I thought hopping in Pcars and trying the camber hack and then I remembered I uninstalled that garbage quite a while back.

    By the way, I thought us WMD members were supposed to get profit payments via paypal every quarter for two years and I have only received three the last being December 7, 2015. Are the payments done for all or just the small investors?

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    1. The last payment was February IIRC.
      The payments delayed a bit because they are combining them into a single larger payment instead of a smaller quarterly payment.

      But you’d know that if you bothered check the WMD forums 🙂

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  22. If you want this kind of experiment to look more authoritative you should involve as many drivers as possible. That would exhaust a lot of the doubt because if you get identical results from various styles and skill levels it looks more undeniable than one person doing it.

    You should revisit this experiment with a larger sample size. Plenty of studies in the past done by much more professional people than you have found on repeat testing that their conclusions somehow were wrong, that their data somehow didn’t repeat itself.

    Actual scientific methodology involves repetition of any experiment for it to be demonstrated as factual. You now need to go repeat this, or get some people you know and trust to. You could also compare across multiple sim platforms to ensure your conclusion focusing on PCars is justified.

    Do all that and you earn a bit of a right to form the conclusions you formed in this article. So far though you’re still jumping the gun. I wonder if you’ll bother though. I’d be impressed if you did.

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    1. this test has been repeated many times by many people, every top driver in project cars leagues uses zero camber. guess why?

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      1. There’s a big difference between knowing something anecdotal shared across the community and demonstrating it unequivocally as a fact of objective reality beyond the ability of anyone to argue.

        For instance in the days of IL-2 Sturmovik the simulation of USAF harmonized .50 cal machine guns was totally incorrect to the point that the entire reason they used them in real life instead of bigger cannons was lost making the airplanes using them not competitive. Olg Maddox, developer, refused to acknowledge this, not until someone did an exhaustive scientific analysis to demonstrate empirically exactly what everyone already knew.

        At that point Oleg was so embarrassed that the Russian did what few Russians seem capable of doing, acknowledging that he was wrong and fixing it.

        So basically if you only care about being right and smug about it great, you’ve already got your truth. But if you want to actually positively effect change in the game you need to be a bit more humble and realistic.

        Something tells me you’re mostly interested in being a smug mouthpiece for whiners.

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        1. Is this guy really asking PRC to do government level scientific research for a known bug in PCars?

          Sim racing fans everyone. I eagerly await the day James gets the funding for this endeavor so we can really make sure that PCars has a camber bug.

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          1. “Is this guy really asking PRC to do government level scientific research for a known bug in PCars?”

            No, not government level research, basic level research, like the kind anybody can do.

            It doesn’t take the resources of the government to get 10 people to repeat the same basic experiment and see if the results are consistent. It takes a few more people doing exactly the same thing that he managed to do on his own.

            Basically it would require about 1% of the effort the average Eve online faction leader would be doing on a daily basis.

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    2. Oh, shut up. A fast and consistent driver´s data is worth more than 100 muppets saying nonsense. Anyone with half a clue about PCARS already knew this. Only a total imbecile would have not realized after so long, and only a total imbecile can call this “jumping the gun”.

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      1. A single driver’s consistency is not a compelling data point. Individuals are often exceptional, incorrect, flawed, or just somehow break form the norm. Exceptions exist to any rule and therefore in order to be compelling you need to repeat it.

        That is basic science. It doesn’t matter how compelling the quality of someone’s research is, it doesn’t matter if a god of science presents a paper with immaculate science in it, you must repeat the experiment and you must be able to do it outside of the confines of someone’s individual take on it. Furthermore people fake science all the time, its easy. Its not like James published a paper that was peer reviewed and we can see every data point he used to present his conclusions. Given the credibility of this blog as chasing sensationalism its easy for the fan boys and devs to dismiss this.

        Only with a proper repeated analysiswill you get those assholes who work for SMS to listen. As I said above, you can easily use this info to brag and be a smug asshole about being right. If you want the data to actually have an effect you need to go so far in proving it that all the insulation that fanboys and devs have is immediately defeated and impossible to defend.

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        1. You realise this issue was acknowledged by SMS as being real and they attempted a fix in patch 7, right? And that all they did was try to neutralize the top speed advantage, still leaving the benefits of the initial extra grip under acceleration, right? A long time ago I ran a league race in one of the open wheelers at Laguna Seca and was struggling to get below 1:16, even though people who were normally much slower than me in other sims were comfortably in the low 1:15s. Eventually one of them told me about this retarded camber thing, I stuck it to zero and hey presto, now I’m in the low 1:14s. The only thing I’d note is that for me it works best with rear camber at zero and a little bit more negative camber on the front so as not to lose ALL contact patch when cornering. Still nowhere near as much as you’d normally expect to run though, probably about a third or a quarter of what would really make sense on the front.

          Like

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