Reader Submission #138 – From One Extreme to the Next

After the surprisingly competent Porsche Cup release earlier this year, which saw a new iteration of iRacing’s long-standing tire model project impress even the harshest critics who had been slowly scaling back their activity within the simulator, iRacing’s latest update has now brought these specific tire model revisions to a slew of other vehicles as well. Dubbed NTM 6.5, the latest iRacing rubber redux has coated the forums in a film of optimism that is long overdue for the aging service, though today’s Reader Submission indicates not everybody is completely sold on the new changes as of yet. While certain cars are indeed much better to drive than they were previously, users are pointing out that tires have in some cases been hastily copy/pasted from one car to the next, in some instances leading to amateur rFactor mod troubleshooting scenarios which place slicks with inaccurate properties on the wrong car.

Wishing to remain anonymous, partially in fear of a backlash from the community for daring to talk to PRC, today’s Reader Submission has more.

Yeah, no introduction here, I just wanted to shoot you guys a short message about iRacing’s new tires. Very soft and spongy, if I have to cut things down for length.

It appears iRacing basically took the tires from the new Porsche GT3 Cup and slapped them on the HPD. While they solved the problem of skating on ice and being able to save death slides, they are obviously just a fudge of the tires in an attempt to try and make them act more normal-ish. It seems one of the main things they did was just make the sidewalls two inches taller. This added height makes the car wobble more, and feel very spongy in the first fifteen degrees of rotation in either direction of the steering wheel. It feels like running on tires with 12 PSI, where the shoulders are just rolling over. When loading an HPD setup from last season, the only thing wrong is the ride heights all the way around – they’re too high, and it doesn’t pass the built-in tech inspection.

As you may know, anyone decent in the Acura HPD runs their front spring rages from 160 to 210 n/mm, and then whatever their fronts are, the rears are a click or two softer. What’s funny, is that the spring range for the HPD is 130 through 550 n/mm, so effectively, the only viable spring rates you can use for the car are in the first 25% of their available range. And here is what happens now if you run within that range – the tire protrudes through the fender.

So suffice to say, I believe iRacing fucked up and put GT tires on a prototype, and it feels awful and completely unrealistic with huge sidewalls that make the car feel like you’re running on a sport utility vehicle suspension. I wasn’t even hitting the track with the front splitter all the way down;, obviously at Sebring that would be detrimental, but it would be even worse if you did. I was about four clicks up on each side from the lowest ride height. Back to the drawing board, I guess.

I’m certainly not trying to turn this place into an iRacers Anonymous meeting by any means, but what you’re experiencing is why people like myself, Dustin, and some of the commenters which frequent PRC often talk about the tendency for the staff to totally wing it, only for the low-level punters to sit there and sip on the Kool-Aid as if this is a perfectly normal part of software development with this much money and research behind the project. I could certainly sit here and throw out a bunch of insults directed at that specific neck of the woods, but instead I want to bring up a very specific example:

A few days ago, Billy Strange of Inside Sim Racing uploaded a lengthy preview video of the new build, and in it he discussed the new GT1 tires. Now, I like Billy, I like the concept of the video above – introduction skit included – so this isn’t a knock on him per se, but just an example of how the community operates and sort of looks the other way when it comes to genuine issues. About halfway through the clip, Strange begins evaluating the Corvette C6R GT1, and states that the car now feels “underneath you”, and previous builds had this weird off-throttle oversteer, or something to that effect. The portion of the video you’re looking for begins at 6:20.

My question is, why is this only being discussed now? When the last build was released, why wasn’t Strange coming out and saying “yeah guys, it’s not very good, the car doesn’t feel planted, it does some funny things, I’d be on the fence about buying new content.” Those are findings a lot of people would like to be made aware of. Instead, the fallacy of iRacers praising the new update and shit-canning the last build, when three months ago they praised that update and spoke negatively of the second-to-last build, continues, regardless of how contradictory they may be.

The point I’m getting at, is you are simply ahead of the curve here. You are correct that iRacing have a tendency to wing certain updates, and confirmation will come in about three to four months, when iRacers both on the forums and in YouTube videos will begin bashing this current build of the game. This is unfortunately part of iRacing’s development process; the in-house testers simply aren’t very good at what they do, and it’s impossible for iRacing to recruit aliens to test the software because it’ll then compromise the playing field (seriously, who would report exploits only they’ve found with $10,000 on the line), so the reality is that iRacing members are for the most part paying beta testers.

And to get these people to notice changes in the first place, you’ve got to make adjustments that go from one extreme, all the way to the other. Not everyone is the sim racing equivalent of Niki Lauda, blessed with sensitive ass cheeks and championship-winning driving skills. To get proper feedback on the new tires, they’ve got to make the change from one rendition to the next so drastic, even the punters (I like that term, thanks) with 1327 iRating feel obligated to hit up the forums and say “yes, I feel there has been an improvement. in these specific areas.”

Shitty? Yes, but that’s part of the deal when you sign up for iRacing. Some builds you’re racing, other builds you’re an elaborate beta tester. Now you see why some of us have taken the money and left for greener pastures.

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59 thoughts on “Reader Submission #138 – From One Extreme to the Next

  1. Pretty autistic but I think you went too far with this one to properly trigger the iracers, it’s not very believable and left me with less to laugh at than your average article. Overall 3/10 try harder in future.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. because iracing has always been this way regards tires,iracings cluster of fucktards always defending the latest greatest tire ‘(d)evolution’ and conveniently forgetting how shit the last one was.
    no fudging here sir..no none indeed,we use only the real tyre data no fudging..

    I think what we have seen lately with fudging of numbers on the Porsche tires is a clear indication that the self proclaimed genius who has been trying to develop the tire using real data the since gpl days, has finally (read hopefully) realised, it doesn’t matter how you get the tire to where it needs to be as long as it gets there,fudged or not..i mean do you even think when you are driving that,hey thank god this tire is made from real data?

    Like

    1. So true,many don’t realise that the real data more often than not renders an experience nothing like real life,or even drivable,so some fudging is always present,but iracing are a class above in the sales spiel department,they can flat out lie,get caught out an still the itards will fanboy the fuck out.

      I really need to get banned from the forum,it just boggles my mind just how pathetic the usual crowd are

      Like

      1. Russ Lowe (patchedupdemon), you have no basis for comparison. Your Ford Taurus isn’t a good example of “real life”. Sorry, kid.

        Like

  3. At first glance and only 30 mins testing I was very happy with this new tyre compound,but 2 hrs later I’m not so full of praise.

    While the rear definitely benefits from the slight increase in progression regarding grip states,the front in my opinion has been negatively effected,it’s just so mushy and even more vague than the previous build.

    I think it’s been a copy and paste job,instead of being tweaked per car,but hey this is iracing where wip is the failsafe,and petty pricks attack anyone daring to speak up about issues.

    Like

  4. “Now you see why some of us have taken the money and left for greener pastures.”
    Can you make an article and explain how other users can get their money back from iRacing? Now that would be a helpful!

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Yah honestly the IRacing culture pisses me off. Here is a pathetic example of an uber-fanboy defending the old tire model just a month ago.

    So here is claiming that the tire model is perfect a month back, so now that the tires behave differently is it totally wrong. I would hazard a guess that no, now he will say they are perfecter, even though they feel very different. At least he has the balls to state what he is in his sig.

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  6. John Ulmer aka “the Anonymous submitter”.

    You know, the only retard on the iR forum that thought the tires on the Hpd are the same of the GT3.
    Happy you got your 5 minutes of celebrity, it’s clear you are a poor frustrated without a life… Your idiotic theory didn’t get heard so you needed to contact PRC. Poor man…

    John Ulmer, a poor frustrated man.

    Like

    1. Why don’t you come and address me directly, on the iRacing forum. Don’t hide behind this anonymous garbage, let’s have a direct debate.

      For the record, I have nothing to do with this 100% made up “article”. It was written by the same moron who said that direct drive wheels were a fad that had died. Can’t take this kid seriously after that (or before it).

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      1. I have to excuse with you honestly. Just few minutes ago I have read your post on the iR forum:

        https://postimg.org/image/ymbqf4mmp/

        I could’t image the guy was so much moron, and I didn’t know you. You were the only one talking about it so honestly I just thought you were the insider. Sorry man, I hope you can understand.

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        1. “I could’t image the guy was so much moron,”

          Yeah, if you gonna insult someone, best to not type it out like a fucking spastic…

          you seem determined to dox the author, why? are you retarded? did you have a father growing up? seems pretty pathetic doxing people because of video games no?

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          1. Lol, he called him a retard, a no-lifer, a poor frustrated man, then he said he’s sorry.

            Welcome to the iRacing community. Welcome to the United States.

            A bunch of fags licking their own assholes.

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        2. How about you debate me directly on my “idiotic theory”. How about we meet in a server, and I’ll give you a few different “fast” setups for the car and let you try it out for yourself. Since I’m the only “retard on the forum” and all. By the way, I’m far from the only person who has said this.

          Better yet, why not start by explaining to me how the car doubled it’s ride height with nothing more than a tire change? If you can’t explain that, then you need to stop throwing childish insults my way.

          Like

  7. “Instead, the fallacy of iRacers praising the new update and shit-canning the last build, when three months ago they praised that update and spoke negatively of the second-to-last build, continues, regardless of how contradictory they may be.”

    Spot on.
    And if you even politely point this contradiction out inside the iRacing forum you get verbally killed.

    Another thing is that nobody inside the forum has dared to ask is why this positive “Porsche tire” development WAS NOT created by iRacings TM guru, King Kaemmer, but by someone else 🙂
    And now afterwards they suddenly re-name the TM from 6.0 to 6.5 eventhough they were vey clear after the Porsche upd that this WAS NOT CAUSED BY A TM CHANGE!

    Like

    1. LOLWUT????

      The tire model was developed by Kaemmer, while developing the model for the dirt, they also improved the compund development. The Porsche, and now the update on the other cars is just the result of the work made by Kaemmer (the only coder of the TM) and the dynamic ingeneers.

      Also no one of the staff “dubbed” the update as NTM 6.5, this is just PRC bs.

      Like

      1. “nobody inside the forum has dared to ask is why this positive “Porsche tire” development WAS NOT created by iRacings TM guru, King Kaemmer, but by someone else”.
        vs
        “The Porsche, and now the update on the other cars is just the result of the work made by Kaemmer (the only coder of the TM) and the dynamic ingeneers”.

        someone else = “the dynamic ingeneers”:-) 🙂

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        1. You clearly don’t know how things work in modern simulations.

          Physics guy (Kaemmer) -> writes the physics engine and the tire model
          Dynamc engineer (ie. Chris Lerch) -> inserts the data collected from the real car to the physic engine made by the physics guy, and makes the compounds using the tire model made by the physics guy.

          This is not something new due to the Dirt development or Porsche, this is the routine since the beginning.

          So please get a clue and stop writing bs

          Like

  8. Now, I’ve got know way to prove this, and of course it’s the Internet, but I’ll just say it anyway.

    I’ve driven actual race cars at the track (1982-85) and was OK at it. I’ve done track weekends every 2-3 months for the past 15 years, currently with a modded TTRS. Before that an M6 (too heavy). Before that a supercharged S2000. Before that I was too poor and drove a used Suburban 😉

    I’ve tried iRacing. My honest opinion is that that their tire model doesn’t feel anything like anything I’ve ever driven (everything from old Hoosiers and Goodyear slicks to modern R7’s, RE050’s and PSC2’s). I don’t care what sort of fancy equations they claim to use.

    Never did try the new Porsche because, frankly, I really like the way the tires feel in R3E. I just don’t feel the need to go looking for something else. None of these simulators can teach you how to drive anyway.

    But Yeah, R3E feels about right. That’s my .02

    Like

    1. yes completely agree Kondor, unfortunately I’m almost 100% multiplayer and nothing can match IRacing mp yet. I have high hopes though for R3E’s ranked multiplayer that will hopefully drop this year.

      Like

  9. After seeing what seems to be every single developer with 50 different cars in there game , forever trying to get the tyre balance right , I must say I myself am starting to lean towards developers concentrating on one race format simulators. (back to the old days ) jesus it would be a hell of a lot easier to get things correct .

    The variables must be a fuckn nightmare , let alone how can the tyre behave well if the rest of the cars physical attributes are wrong e.g centre of gravity , suspension , aero and so on.

    It all seems to be about the tyre model all the time .

    Am I wrong to think it will never work properly if the rest of the car is incorrect ?

    Liked by 2 people

  10. When modern GT cars drive like 70’s F1 on balloon ply-bias tyres there’s a problem. It’s good that the weird snappy edge is gone, but now you can just slide forever no problem, taking long sweepers such as Sebring T1 entirely at neutral or slight counter steer like it’s nothing. The amount of overdriving you can get away with is quite ridiculous. Nevermind how mushy the tyres feel, and what pressures we run now (a good 50-70kpa lower than IRL).

    But hey, since it’s so noob friendly now it’s the best update ever, always wanted to drift modern GT cars around like a lunatic.

    Like

    1. I tried the Porsche and it was definitely better than AC. It has grip that iR never had, you can still loop it. Not defending iR but it’s the first legitimate step they have made in probably 2 years.

      I guess what I wanted to say was you shouldn’t be able to drift GT cars but you definitely shouldn’t be fucking spinning them out every corner like the iR standard was.

      Like

      1. Chris, the Cup car is actually much better somehow, tho maybe a tad permissive in some cases. I’m talking about the GT3 cars mainly (havent tried anything else), on those its fucked.

        Like

  11. I think what everyone over here at PRC is forgetting is that the majority of us IR members race for the competition and enjoyment of a good battle on track..

    If we were looking for just feeling how a car drives there are platforms with much larger car variety that (like IR) claim to be the best simulation of real world feel.

    At the end of the day IR users are all on the same platform trying to squeeze every .001 of the most current NTM so we can compete at incredibly entertaining events like the Sebring 12hr or Indy 500 regardless of real world accuracy because let’s face it… Were all sitting in our homes at a computer and I would rather it be close to real life but still a thrill to drive.

    You guys keep complaining and wandering around looking for a home.. me and my team will be on track throwing around these pretend racecars along with the rest of the largest sim racing community.

    Cheers,

    IR Fanboy

    Like

  12. Its hilarious to watch a long thread in the iRacing forum about this PRC site.
    A lot of iRacers does in a way appologise that they actually have read this Readers Submission.
    Hehe ‎implying that they will never do it again. Never! 🙂

    But there are also some few who dare to think loudly that something does indicate that the submissions postulate that iRacing have copy & pasted some FUDGED tire model data from the Porsche to all the other cars that have got the same tire update.

    Because different cars that before the update behaved differently does now behave similiar is a weird way not representative of the car types differences. 😉

    Like

  13. iRacers seriously believe that Dave Kaemmer has been developing this real-time, physically-based tire model (a near anomaly in the industry) for years that’s been prone to almost unrecoverable spins from minor events e.g. a bit of grass or curb or throttle at the wrong time, at low speed, that wouldn’t even need a correction in real life, and that now, someone else has changed the tire compound that’s plugged into it and it suddenly works – fixes all that behaviour? So he was testing and developing it all this time with a dodgy compound and that was the problem?? Or was it that studying dirt physics for 5 minutes fixed the road tires?? Yeah, one of those must make perfect sense. looool

    And btw, the price of this “fix” is that some cars are well into the arcade realm now – the Skip Barber is now such a boat it’s almost unspinnable – unlike the real one that wants to swap ends at the drop of a hat.

    They’ve got away with this state of affairs for so long because the fanboys are infinitely tolerant. They didn’t care that they’d paid a premium for years of physics howlers not present in any other sim (they claimed it was right at the time), but now celebrate it’s even more right now that it’s completely different – with the added ‘realistic” feature that the cars auto correct under any circumstances as opposed to the previous autospin.

    Really, the ONLY reason to be in iRacing is the organised online racing. How sad the sim world has turned out like this.

    Liked by 1 person

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